Withdraw

[Cross]

My current understanding is:

Units under fire go from READY to PINNED to RETREATING to ROUTED.
Units RETREATING or ROUTED usually move back a hex.

They can also TAKE COVER, which I believe takes place while PINNED. Units stay in their hex but get a chance to hide from view and probably get an additional defensive bonus.

It seems to me that more experienced, high morale or elite units will stubbornly stay put and take more casualties before RETREATING and moving back a hex, as though every piece of ground should be held at all costs.

My question is:

Is the code up to a WITHDRAW option? This would give commanders the ability to tell units to WITHDRAW upon taking fire. I guess similar to how we can set individual units in regards to Opportunity Fire and Rally Hex, it would be useful to be able to tell units to immediately WITHDRAW upon taking fire. So this setting would give you additional control over your units during your opponents turn.

This would be great for probing enemy defenses, scouting, or just when conservation of a unit is more important to you than holding ground.

Possible issues and observations:

Should AREA FIRE make units withdraw, I would say yes?
I assume PINNED units would be allowed to WITHDRAW, just as PINNED units are able to take cover; or should only READY units be allowed to withdraw?
If you WITHDRAW it may or may not result in being hidden. Close by enemy units could follow you and continue the attack.
Should Tanks WITHDRAW in reverse?
This may give humans an additional advantage over the AI, unless this was made into a PBEM only feature.

Just a thought, and even if all your excellent updates cease, this will remain the best wargame for many years to come.
Thanks guys.

[PanzerBob]

I believe WITHDRAWAL can be done by you if the unit is not so suppressed it cannot move. Tanks can withdraw in reverse if they can move and it costs 3 mp's to do so, or you can have your crews bail out. Check HELP for the commands I don't remember them off hand.

In real life a withdrawal would be a command decision, not a function more or less beyond a unit's control. That's likely why theres no such function in the game.

[Cross]

I understand we can withdraw units ourselves during our own move turn, but I was specifically addressing an opportunity to gain more control of units during your opponents turn.

I can watch the replay of one of my units taking fire again and again, and if I could, I would have moved them back (withdraw) rather than stay and take casualties.

There are a few computer wargames out there where you can choose the 'stance' of your units, or how tenacious they should be even when taking casualties.

My idea is a way that the commander can issue orders like: 'If you make contact and get fired upon, move back'. Opposed to: 'If you take fire, hold the ground at all costs'.

Does this make sense?

Cheers,
Cross

[evan]

It makes sense and I agree with your point that units sometimes take more fire and casulties than you would like before fleeing.

I suspect that pinned means exactly that, the unit is pinned and likely to take fire going foreward or retreating.

The other issue around this is smoke dischargers on tanks. One good hit and the Polish and British tanks I've being dealing with disappear in a smoke screen. My german tanks don't seem to do the same thing. So is this historic or a programming matter? Did the Germans have and use smoke dischargers/ grenades and at what stage of the war if at all?

(Sorry if this is too much of a diversion but....)
Evan

[Charles22]

Some vehicles have them, and others do not. Whether every nation behaves the same way when they do have them I don't know.

[Marek_Tucan]

Every nation treats smoke dischargers the same way, but AFAIK Germans used frag grenades for close-in defense rather than smoke shells in their discharger-like apparatus (that terrible abbreviation on late-war tanks).

Brits did use external smoke dischargers and late tanks had AFAIK internal 2in mortar for smoke laying.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Cross
I cant see it happening myself it is probably a lot of work, but I would say that setting the infantry unit to pop smoke if fired at may be a little easier as a similar function already appears for vehicles with smoke dischargers.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Cross]

Hi Evan,

From a realism/consistancy point of view, I think if Pinned units can Take Cover or Retreat then why not Withdraw?

AFAIK Retreating units are more vulnerable to being spotted and to damage.
Withdraw would be a more tactical retreat where they'd be more hidden (like when units Take Cover) as they step back a hex, and still be able to fire back (opportunity fire) if shot at.

As for Smoke dischargers, the Germans certainly have them and use them. I think the Lynx (PzII) some of the Pz III's and IV's have at least one smoke discharger shot, the Panther has 1 or 2. You can check specific units in the Encyclopedia or unit info for smoke ammo.

Chuck brings up a good point that infantry could pop smoke. This is not what I had in mind, but it would be nice to have the option to turn that on or off for infantry. Not sure I'd like infantry to pop smoke just because they were shot at though.

cheers
Cross

[pdoktar]

Sometimes if infatry retreat under fire to the next hex, they will pop smoke, if they have smoke grenades left.

[Cross]

Yes, but only after taking damage, and their retreat is because they have too high supression. So they are usually rendered ineffective at this point, unless you can rally what's left of them.

I'd like some units to Withdraw from fire, to avoid casualties and maintain low supression.