spob34

[Mobhack]

Btw, those sources hint the existance of HEAT shells for inf guns (not that high numbers where actually delivered, though .. italian crews improvised by firing HE shells without fuze?). I would suggest adding low numbers of AP and HEAT shells to the guns in question. Obviously, somebody already tried this, but why SABOT ammo was chosen I don't know ... the HEAT shells where streamlined! [ U#321,323,325,327,329 ]

Sabot, as explained in the Mobhack help, is simply AP shell number 2. Many field gun types in the OOBS have a full range for the main HE shell, which uses (shares) the same range as the AP round, as explained in the mobhack help files. The sabot shell has its own AP range - which can be shorter or longer than the HE, HEAT and AP rounds which all use the one shared range.

Take the AP round for the UK 25 pounder - the ATG version of this is still useful for potting things with HE at distances, but if the AP round was given the same range as the HE round, it would be incredibly effective with its 200+ hex maximum range!. Same as for the little 37mm French tank popgun - a useful HE range, but a short range AP round using the sabot slot as it was not very effective at AP at all.

So - these units use a sabot round with a short range to allow the full HE range, but a short range AP shell of some sort as the "sabot". Could be an unfused HE round, who either knows or cares - only the OOB designer, and unless he put that in an info screen, we (Don and I) don't know either since these OOBS have been worked on by multiple persons for well over a decade.

If you need the nuts and bolts details, and one of those guys is still available you can discuss it with him as he may know why he made some decision or other. It could be because he copied the stats for the existing Umty-Flumpty model 543 howitzer as an improvised ATG, and wanted to retain the useful HE range, so gave it a short-ranged AP round if the original Umpty-Flumpty 543 did not have this, or he simply copied the existing Umpty-Flumpty 543 (which has a sabot as the shorter ranged AP round as howitzers usually do) and reclassed it as an ATG for the improvised ATG class?. If the OOB designer that did it is available - he may well be able to tell you. Otherwise your guess is as good as anyone else's - including us.

Cheers
Andy

[Arralen]

thatguy96 said:

Its the other way around. The USMC one should be size 1. 6+ men are size 1, 5 or less are size 0. At least this is the convention.

Oh, really?
Then why are all those 8-men HMG squads size "0" ?!

[thatguy96]

I'm waiting for an answer on that as well, because those should also be size 1 according to the convention. My feeling is that when those units were created they were copy-and-pasted from 3- or 4-man single HMGs, and while everything else was increased, the size wasn't. I could also be that there's a size 0 convention for infantry weapon teams, but I doubt it. Look to see if other MG squads (6+ men) are size 0 or 1 in other OOBs.

[Sniper23]

They are size 0 to represent easily camouflage/hidden MG I think

[Mobhack]

The smaller ATG (not 17 pdrs etc) and all M/HMG teams have always been size 0, because these were deemed easy units to conceal. Mortars were not - because these are crewed standing up.

For scout teams and so forth, only those under 5 men in size are allowed size 0 - as far as I recall, in the original SP series all Japanese rifle sections were given size 0, but that bonus has been removed a long time ago.

As far as M/HMG sections of 2 or more guns being super-deadly because they have size 0 - I really don't find that to be the case myself. They may get a round or 2 off undetected but if you keep firing from the same position you soon get spotted. But the best counter is just to stop advancing for a move or 2 if under MG fire and call in mortar fire on the general location you think the fire is coming from.

If you think the multiple gun sections need to be size 1, then by all means try it out in your OOBS with Mobhack, after running it through the points calculator to remove the size 0 added cost and see if it makes any real difference.

Cheers
Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

Personally, I had no problems with size 0 MG units. They can be effective if used wisely, but they are no superweapon and the size 0 gives them (with splash damage effect) just enough punch to be actually worthwhile (in pre-splash days the MG's were really quite underpowered IMO).

[DRG]

Originally Posted by thatguy96

Its the other way around. The USMC one should be size 1. 6+ men are size 1, 5 or less are size 0. At least this is the convention.

Correct. All the "patrol" units in the game that are 6 men are size one EXCEPT the USMC ( the USA "Fighting Patrol" is 6 men and size 1 as well) so it's the USMC unit that's the error ( now fixed ) and not the Italian Pattuglia. There are three scout units in the OOB's that were six men and size zero as well and those have now been corrected

Don

[Arralen]

[quote=DRG;610682]

******Yep, and it's been that way for years ( over 6 years at the very minimum )My first guess is it should have AP but seeing as it's been that way for quite awhile I will assume instead that I'll need to dig into it a litte deeperDon

As it still does not have any AP ammo in v4.0, I guess you either forgot to dig deeper, or there must be some really interesting story why the Italians put 75L46 guns on trucks, only to shoot HE shells with puny penetration at tanks ... lack of AP shells? HEAT shells never arrived?
Point is, the unit does not make much sense as it is now ... but there are some of those in the Italian OOB, historically correct

Btw., I know for some (few, britsh e.g.,) units there are info texts in the encycl., ... would you like to have more for the other vehicles?
This gun would be a prime example for a unit in dire need of "explanation"

[DRG]

Change the ammo load to 20 HE/ 30 AP. Problem solved. Now corrected in the master

If you find any further informaton on this weapon please let us know .


Don

[Arralen]

I'm not entirely sure which gun this is supposed to be ... I don't have any literature, so I have to rely on what I find on the net:

I found mentioned

- Breda 75/46, Main armament of the Semovente M43 da 75/46, a German variant combining confiscated Italian guns und vehicles. ... The 75/46 M.34 appears to have been based on an obsolete anti-aircraft gun of WW1 vintage, possibly the French 75 mm Puteaux anti-aircraft gun.
and
fireandfury.com - Semovente M43 da 75/46

- Ansaldo 75/46 Ultime réalisation de l'ingénieur Giuseppe Rosini, le semovente da 75/46 était une évolution du semovente da 105/25, basé sur le même châssis M43. Les différences principales entre les deux blindés étaient la substitution du canon de 105/25 par celui de 75/46, particulièrement adapté pour le tir antichar, et l'ajout d'un blindage supplémentaire sur la partie frontale de la casemate dont l'épaisseur variait de 70 �* 100 mm.
Note also the link to http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/phot...none75-46.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone....A._modello_34

My french is non-existant, but I think those 2 sources a slightly contradicting.

Judging from the pics on that french website, the unit/equipment list on http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/...hp?f=20&t=2527, which lists
ANTI-AIRCRAFT
20mm L/65 + Ford or Spa
37mm L/54 + ?
75mm L/46 + ?
...

and
Comando Supremo: GGFF (Giovani Fascisti) 1941-1943, which lists
136th INFANTRY DIVISION GGFF - Giovani Fascisti (Mareth Line 15 March 1943)
48th AA/ATk ARTILLERY BATTALION (Italian 75/46 AA Guns)

I would say that
- the Ansaldo AA gun was used in dual role
- it may, or may not have been used mounted on trucks
- it may, or may not have been used in a SVM

Great

I would guess in fact that the gun on the truck was the Ansaldo 75/46, considering the fact that the german 8.8 must have been of similar size, and was screwed onto everything that could drive ... .
From the pics provided, it seems to me that the SVM is not of sufficient size to house the big AA gun without extensive redesign - doesn't matter that much, as only 11 seems to have been produced. Btw., the successor, the 90/53 gun was mounted on a tank chassis (Semovente 90/53) and was so big that half of the crew had to stand behind the TD in combat.