Blood of the First Born

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Astral: Paralyze
Fire: Incinerate
Nature: Charm
Death: Drain Life
Earth: Petrify

-Max

Paralyze is not particularly effective. High prot, hi regen SC's with/without FireShields can ignore being paralyzed.

Now, if combat ended when all units were paralyzed... another story.

Drain life doesn't do sufficient damage - now it is useful as a buff - but as a tactic to kill a big unit - not so much.

I don't remember incinerate. Sooo since Ihaven't seen it used I'm inclined to say it isn't effective = ).

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Paralyze is not particularly effective. High prot, hi regen SC's with/without FireShields can ignore being paralyzed.

Now, if combat ended when all units were paralyzed... another story.

Drain life doesn't do sufficient damage - now it is useful as a buff - but as a tactic to kill a big unit - not so much.

I don't remember incinerate. Sooo since Ihaven't seen it used I'm inclined to say it isn't effective = ).

Incinerate is something like 10 or 15 points of AN Fire damage. There's an item (Phoenix Rod, 25 Fire gems) that lets you cast it. Fire mages frequently choose it to eliminate single units (that lone knight that broke the blockade) because it's Prec 100. I don't know why you haven't seen it used--perhaps the SCs in question were fire resistant?

Just like Frozen Heart, Incinerate and Drain Life obviously require you to deal damage faster than the target heals. This probably means you need 2-3 casters doing 30+ HP per turn (AN). Since they're all Prec 100, they scale well w/ number of casters.

Paralyze against an SC is probably most useful in conjunction with other spells that actually finish off the SC, like the afore-mentioned direct-damage spells, or Mind Burn. As you say, SCs will frequently be able to stand off troops w/ Awe, Fear, high Prot, etc. even while paralyzed.

-Max

P.S. In theory, Paralyze out to do a massive amount of damage to SCs because paralyzation damage turns to real damage if you get re-paralyzed, according to the manual. In practice I haven't observed this w/ Paralyze, although I haven't really been looking for it.

[HoneyBadger]

I'd like to mention that, thematically, it's an intriguing idea, I just don't think it's a necessary addition, mechanically, the way it's presented.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Incinerate is something like 10 or 15 points of AN Fire damage. There's an item (Phoenix Rod, 25 Fire gems) that lets you cast it. Fire mages frequently choose it to eliminate single units (that lone knight that broke the blockade) because it's Prec 100. I don't know why you haven't seen it used--perhaps the SCs in question were fire resistant?

Just like Frozen Heart, Incinerate and Drain Life obviously require you to deal damage faster than the target heals. This probably means you need 2-3 casters doing 30+ HP per turn (AN). Since they're all Prec 100, they scale well w/ number of casters.

Paralyze against an SC is probably most useful in conjunction with other spells that actually finish off the SC, like the afore-mentioned direct-damage spells, or Mind Burn. As you say, SCs will frequently be able to stand off troops w/ Awe, Fear, high Prot, etc. even while paralyzed.

-Max

P.S. In theory, Paralyze out to do a massive amount of damage to SCs because paralyzation damage turns to real damage if you get re-paralyzed, according to the manual. In practice I haven't observed this w/ Paralyze, although I haven't really been looking for it.

On the face of it, what you say sounds plausible. However, examining it detail:

If you're looking at it in detail - the average giant will have a mr in the 14-18 range. The average sc in the 20-28 range.
So considering Niefle giants, for example

Even if you spam incinerate - you're spamming your F4 mage (cost > 150gp) against a unit with an MR of 18 usually after the bless, and a regen of 10. Won't work.

[thejeff]

Incinerate doesn't have an MR check. 18+AN damage. 100 precision. F3, which really only needs an F2 mage with Phoenix Power, if you're spamming it.
Neifel Giants are vulnerable to fire, so it should drop them even faster. It's Alt 5, though, so hardly an early game counter. And SCs will usually have FR, or will once you kill a few this way.

[vfb]

Here's my list of combat no-MR spells, may as well share it with the world :

Damage-dealing, no MR spells, ignoring range <= 5, AN unless noted, not underwater only
(SD)=shield defends
(NAN)=not armor negating/piercing
(AP)=armor piercing
(MB)=magic being target only
(U)=undead being target only
(L)=living being target only
(F)=Fatigue damage only
(P)=Poison damage only
(!)=Precision 100
(#)=large area/BF/BE
(*)=Not resistable like you might think

A: Lightning Bolt, Orb Lightning, Thunder Strike, Shimmering Fields (#)

S: Star Fires, Magic Duel (!,opponent must have S), Arcane Bolt (MB), Solar Rays (!,U,AP),
Stellar Cascades (!,F,AP)

B: Blood Burst, Leech (!,L), Hellfire (AP), Life for a Life (!),
Infernal Prison/Claws of Kocytus (!,can return)

D: Ghost Grip (NAN,F), Dust to Dust (U), Wither Bones (U,#), Drain Life (!,L),
Rigor Mortis (not undead,#,F), Bone Grinding (#)

E: Flying Shards (NAN,SD), Magma Bolts (*,NAN,SD), Farstrike (NAN,SD?), Shatter (AN,lifeless only),
Blade Wind (NAN,SD,#), Rain of Stones (NAN,#), Magma Eruption (*,NAN,#),
Gifts from Heaven (NAN), Earthquake (AP,#,defense roll), Petrify (!,paralyze)

F: Fire Flies (AP,SD), Fire Darts (AP,SD), Flame Bolt (AP,SD), Fireball (AP), Flare (AP),
Falling Fires (#,AP), Pillar of Fire (AP), Sulpher Haze (#), Incinerate (!),
Flame Storm (#,AP)

N: Maggots (U,!,AN), Vine Arrow (NAN,SD), Breath of the Dragon (P), Storm of Thorns (SD),
Poison Cloud (#,P), Foul Vapors (#,P)

W: Frozen Heart (!), Geyser (AP), Cold Bolt (NAN,SD), Ice Strike (*,NAN), Acid Bolt (*,AP),
Falling Frost (#,NAN), Freezing Mist (#), Acid Rain (*,#,AP), Grip of Winter (#,F),
Acid Storm (*,#,AP), Niefel Flames (#,AP), Numbness (!,F)

Marignon: Holy Pyre (AP)

TC: Celestial Chastisement (MB,!,AN)

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

On the face of it, what you say sounds plausible. However, examining it detail:

If you're looking at it in detail - the average giant will have a mr in the 14-18 range. The average sc in the 20-28 range.
So considering Niefle giants, for example

Even if you spam incinerate - you're spamming your F4 mage (cost > 150gp) against a unit with an MR of 18 usually after the bless, and a regen of 10. Won't work.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Even if you spam incinerate - you're spamming your F4 mage (cost > 150gp) against a unit with an MR of 18 usually after the bless, and a regen of 10. Won't work.

You don't need to explicitly spam it, the battle AI is fine at picking it out itself after the script runs out. MR is irrelevant. Regen of 10 takes care of one mage, so the other two will take him down in short order as long as the chaff holds up. Incinerate is not an F4 spell. I think it's F3, because F2 mages can cast it without boosters. (Thus, it's an SC-/thug-killer that costs only gold, no gems.) Fatigue is low too--20ish IIRC.

Probably the main reason it doesn't get used in MP is because *do* pay attention to resists, since otherwise they'd get Frozen Hearted and Incinerated to death.

-Max

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

You don't need to explicitly spam it, the battle AI is fine at picking it out itself after the script runs out. MR is irrelevant. Regen of 10 takes care of one mage, so the other two will take him down in short order as long as the chaff holds up. Incinerate is not an F4 spell. I think it's F3, because F2 mages can cast it without boosters. (Thus, it's an SC-/thug-killer that costs only gold, no gems.) Fatigue is low too--20ish IIRC.

Probably the main reason it doesn't get used in MP is because *do* pay attention to resists, since otherwise they'd get Frozen Hearted and Incinerated to death.

-Max

I think my point was using a (capitol only?) mage that costs > 150 gp, to take out (capitol only) niefle giants that cost 150 gp is a losing equation. You're fighting economics, plus the 1 commander / turn restriction.

[Trumanator]

But you don't need to kill all of them, just enough to defeat them. Also, you can have your mage and decent scales, while he has destroyed his scales for his bless. Not to mention that its unlikely that your mage will only be able to kill one giant if he's spamming incinerate, more likely he will take down at least 2-3.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Trumanator

But you don't need to kill all of them, just enough to defeat them. Also, you can have your mage and decent scales, while he has destroyed his scales for his bless. Not to mention that its unlikely that your mage will only be able to kill one giant if he's spamming incinerate, more likely he will take down at least 2-3.

Plus the entire point being - giant dies, mage lives. That's the sort of equation that almost always bodes well for you.