If Giants existed in BC times...

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Other high-parry shields like Aegis and the Shield of the Accursed have similar notation about how they're hard to look at, in addition to their other effects. It appears to me that they're trying to explain why they get such an insanely good Parry.

But okay, maybe I'm wrong. I'm not KO or JO or anything.

-Max

Aegis does not say that. Only other shield IIRC that says any such thing, is the Shield of the Accursed, which DOES have absurdly high Parry, and states that it is "painful to look upon". But again, I don't think that is intended to allude to missile blocking, but rather melee parries. I'm having a hard time believing that the runes are SO painful to "look in the general direction of" that they are really intended to be affecting archers at 100 yards.

[MaxWilson]

I'm AFC so I can't check/quote the Aegis description. Oh well, such is life.

We agree, though, that the fact that the Shield of the Accursed gives good protection against missiles is an unintended side-effect of its thematically good "defense" (in the form of melee parry). Ergo, stat bonuses don't always correlate perfectly with thematic intent and that's okay; so a defense bonus to Jomon armor doesn't strictly-speaking have to denote better mobility. It could denote spikes or something that the enemy would try to avoid impaling itself on, etc., and even if that gave you more ability to avoid an Earthquake it would be okay--even canonical items have problems.

And KissBlade is right that this is *still* massively OT from his original post. Fine. I propose that all cap-only mages should become recruitable-anywhere. Hmmm. I should mod that into my game. It would certainly make me more willing to play 80% of the nations out there.

-Max

[Sombre]

How is that supposed to be moving things back on topic?

And wouldn't that just reduce the variety in the game and the distinction between nations?

[JimMorrison]

I wouldn't mind if a bit of extra attention were given to those nations who had strong cap only mages. Basically to either reduce the cost of those slightly, or to somehow slightly (I mean -slightly-) improve the non-cap mages. Of course, only for those who can use such a change in the name of balance/realism. For example, T'ien Ch'i already has adequate non-cap mages for their price, to offset their amazing cap only mages, whereas EA Agartha and the 'Heims (aside from Niefel) have very poor cost/effect choices outside of their capital.

I'm having trouble finding ways to balance out the giants in general terms, without completely gutting their thematic essence..... The only thing I can think of, other than the types of nerfs we mostly see (mostly increased costs?), is to just reduce them in size a bit. I mean, in realistic terms, we consider anyone above 7' to be a giant in the real world, so I'm not sure if in game terms, a Niefel Giant absolutely must be size 6. If most giants dropped a size category (with a small reduction in hp/str to coincide), it might go a fair way towards the balance between thematic power, and overall game viability.

[thejeff]

If most giants dropped a size category, it would be nice boost.
Neifels are already size 5.
Dropping the other giants from 4 to 3 would let 2 of them fit in a square and drastically reduce their swarming issues. Obviously, dropping hp/str might compensate for this.
I don't think the size/hp/str is really the problem with giants. If anything, their troops are usually consider poor already. The cold aura combined with staying power from E9N9 bless is the only real strength of the Neifel Giants.

Both Jotunheim and Utgard also have excellent mages outside their capital. Skratti are excellent mages and thugs in any age. Vaetti hags are cheap and so useful. Seithkonar are also cost-effective and very nice. Cheap Nether Dart spammers, if nothing else.

[JimMorrison]

Pardon, Niefel Giants are indeed size 5 currently, I meant to say Niefel Jarls didn't necessarily need to be size 6.


And I think you downplay the effect a bit. Yes, it would make their line troops a bit better if they dropped to size 3, which of course would be nicely balanced by a slight reduction in stats. However, one of the cornerstones of the power of the giant nations, is the incredible benefits that they get from Nature blesses. Any reduction in base HP will be reflected by a commensurate reduction in regen rates, and that is a very big deal, even in the case of the aforementioned Skratti thugs. As an aside, I don't think too many people would argue if Niefel Jarl Chill auras were reduced a bit, each one is about 3x as potent as the aura from an Ice Devil (the Lords and Generals of Kokytos!), who could probably use a slight increase as well. Perhaps Ice Devils AND Niefel Jarls could both compromise at Chill (10).

[thejeff]

Just to continue to pick that nit, the Jarls are size 5 also.

I'd hate to see all the giants made less giant, for lack of a better term, just to reduce the bonus some of them get from regen. And while we may consider someone 7' a giant today, we also still consider them human. Giants of myth were always big.

I'd agree about the Chill aura. I'd forgotten it was that high. That would be the best nerf to Neifelhiem, weakening its early game without really changing its less impressive mid/late game or the much less feared later giant nations.

[Wrana]

The problem with chill aura is probably that it scales very good with cold Dominion. When Niefels attacked my Lanka in recent SP, for example, aura was closer to 3 iirc. So your own strong (hot) Dominion provides fair protection. At the same time, Ice Devils would probably have to operate in more temperate climate than Niefels. I am not sure whether their aura scales with temperature less than with Niefel. If so, it should be fixed, but probably main effect is due to Dominion difference...

[chrispedersen]

*If* giants existed in BC times?

Of course they did and do.. they just have absurdly high stealth values. Sheesh!

But where do you think sayings like.. he was a giant among men... come from???

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Wrana

The problem with chill aura is probably that it scales very good with cold Dominion. When Niefels attacked my Lanka in recent SP, for example, aura was closer to 3 iirc. So your own strong (hot) Dominion provides fair protection. At the same time, Ice Devils would probably have to operate in more temperate climate than Niefels. I am not sure whether their aura scales with temperature less than with Niefel. If so, it should be fixed, but probably main effect is due to Dominion difference...

Even the base chill on Niefel Jarls is something like 17. On regular Niefels it's 15 or so. Your Lanka territory must have been *extremely* hot.

-Max