H2 priests: Why, when, how?

[Baalz]

Yes, but I just used that as a very commonly occurring case for illustration. The exact same mechanics work if you're using non-PD troops against, say an enemy pretender with a dom-10. Depending on the troops in question sermon of courage could certainly be better support than a mage. This is one example, but plenty a fight was won by once side sticking around one more turn. Certainly not always the case, but it's not that uncommon for sermon of courage to be very much carrying it's weight despite the opportunity cost of a mage.

[Endoperez]

There's also the Holy War mod that's in its early stages. I'd like to have a mod change holy magic (if you can't guess from the long posts I wrote there), and the more opinions written in the thread, the better the chance of Holy War turning into a balanced and oft-used mod.
linky

[analytic_kernel]

Originally Posted by Baalz

I wanted to reiterate how significant sermon of courage can be in *lots* of situations. Bandar Log, for instance, really suffers from not having one - from elephants to markatas pretty much all their units are drastically better with just a little extra morale. More generally for lots of nations, dropping sermon of courage can often make your nice, cheap light infantry a reasonable choice for early expansion opening up strategies for more slothful scales (Abyssia for instance).

I can definitely vouch for this. With Arco, I use Priestesses primarily for Sermon of Courage and not for their ability to heal or their N1 magic. With a little encouragement, Barbarians (low rcost unit, so good for Sloth scales with EA Arco) stay on the battlefield long enough to dish out some heavy hurt rather than run away at the slightest scratch.

Also, I recently fought a MP battle where I had a squad of blessed, encouraged Heart Companions (which already have high morale for non-undead or non-mindless troops), and they fought down almost to the last man. Granted they didn't get to engage the fear-and-awe SC which I recruited them to fight against, but it was still impressive to see them re-enacting the Greeks at Thermopylae....

Sermon of Courage is a great buff. I've experienced enough battles fought with and without it to be a believer in the significant difference it makes. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't feel cheated recruiting some H2 commanders instead of mages.

[vfb]

I remember my expansion Awe god getting absolutely trashed by a "special" barbarian indy province that had an H2 priest commander. It wasn't there from an indy random event, since there were no militia. I've only ever seen that special indy the one time.

[Lingchih]

Originally Posted by Dragar

They're not really free, they come with a swarm of militia you normally don't want and for whatever reason can't get rid of for ages they are only ever useful if you need help sieging nearby somewhere, otherwise it's just upkeep.

I wish there was a disband unit option.

I really don't mind the militia they come with. I use them to fill up frontier forts, making them harder to siege. I don't fight with them of course, just use them for wall defense. And sometimes that "free" H2 priest you get from luck scales comes with flaggies, instead of militia. And those can be useful.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Yes, but I just used that as a very commonly occurring case for illustration. The exact same mechanics work if you're using non-PD troops against, say an enemy pretender with a dom-10. Depending on the troops in question sermon of courage could certainly be better support than a mage. This is one example, but plenty a fight was won by once side sticking around one more turn. Certainly not always the case, but it's not that uncommon for sermon of courage to be very much carrying it's weight despite the opportunity cost of a mage.

Given that you can only have a finite number of commanders (mages/priests) on the battlefield, I think the below holds true.

I would rather trade a mage slot for a single H2 priest spamming sermon of courage (remember that it has a pretty big AoE and costs the priest no fatigue) over the course of a battle than have NO H2 mage. This would be true for just about any nation.

So, generally, if your nation has access to H2 priests. I would stick one with every large army. They'll buff the fighters first if you stick them near the front, and then the archers later, and then they'll probably spam it some more on the fighters getting any they miss.

At the very least you can send that preacher around to preach. something that most newer players don't know is that if you don't have at least one white dom candle in a province you own, all the positive scales have ZERO effect, but all the negative ones are still working at full force. Sometimes just preaching yourself up to 1 white candle can give you half again in income from a province (if you have good scales, or if the dom of someone else does), which easily pays for the H2 priest.

Jazzepi

[Sombre]

So which nations with h2 priests do you recruit them for?

At the moment it seems people are talking theory and citing niche examples where having +2 morale makes a difference. I think it's much more common that it makes no difference and the national H2 is a waste. And it's silly to compare it with just a support mage slot - it should be compared with a researching, site searching, ritual spamming mage slot. The general run of the mill mage you make almost every turn wherever you can. While the H2 is a near complete waste if he doesn't toddle off and support an army, that isn't true of the mage, so don't restrict the comparison as if it is.

[vfb]

I hired a few H2s as MA C'tis. They are 100 gold versus 280 for an H3. By saving 180 gold on the priest I can almost afford another marshmaster.

H1s are crap for preaching and have no leadership. The H2s can raise dominion better than an H1, and MA C'tis troops benefit from the morale boost too. MA C'tis suffers from a lack of troop leaders because indy commanders get sick from miasma and die.

[Sombre]

Ah yes vfb, in the case of MA Ctis they might be worth it. Their preaching is more useful there also, due to the income boost from dominion.

[Agema]

True, the majority of battles are sufficiently one-sided so that +2 morale may not be here nor there. Although as pointed out, if you've switched the dom on a province to yours, you'll be fighting with +3 to your opponent's -1, (as opposed to +1/+1) and that's beginning to look like a big advantage.

Priests should not be sitting around idly. They should be busy preaching every turn they aren't moving or helping an army. This can give you the battlefield advantage above, but it's not just that. H2s convert provinces MUCH quicker.

A province owned but with enemy Dom means suffering several of the worst aspects of their scales and none of the benefits. Convert your provinces, you get the benefits quicker, which means more gold. Not only that, but your temple/God/prophet dom will stop filling your provinces and start spilling over onto your opponents' provinces, meaning they'll start losing productivity. Thus preaching can potentially (depending on scales) increase your wealth and decrease your opponents'. Then also consider combining that with certain globals made effective by your Dom (e.g. The Looming Hell).