Mg 81

[chuckfourth]

Originally Posted by DRG

Then why Chuck did you include it in your speel is if we had ?

Its in its own paragraph and isnt attributed to anyone. I disagree that it looks as if it is a statement by either of you.
The statement is included because I am expecting the thread to be closed shortly so Im trying to make this thread as short as possible by refuting possible arguments before they are put. I am trying to get a -satisfactory- answer to my question before the thread is closed.

Originally Posted by DRG

Who else comments on what can be modeled correctly in the game

Anybody is free to comment on what they think can or cannot be modelled correctly. I can't tell you who might have commented on what they think might or might not be modelled correctly without searching the forum for such a comment made by such a person, and that will take me some time.

Originally Posted by DRG

who actually KNOWS what can be accuratly modeled in the game besides Andy or I ?

Only you and Andy but anyone is free to speculate as to what they think can be modelled. For example I am a C++ programmer which I beleive is the language your game is written in. As C++ is a very flexible language there is probably very little you cant model its just a question of wether the time required justfies the result.

Originally Posted by DRG

In fact, lets take it a step further and show me where anyone on this forum has suggested what you said .

Without having looked I think that this comment originated in the old DOS forum for your game. Again it would take some time to find said comment, and if my memory serves me well and it is in fact there then that poster may or may not be participating in this forum.

Now Ive amswered all your questions to the best of my ability so can you answer mine?
Why are the lafette tripod HMGs ommitted from the OOBs?

I mean Is it really that big an advantage that the Germans have a HMG that can reach out to 50 or 60 hexes that it cant be allowed in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Its in its own paragraph and isnt attributed to anyone. I disagree that it looks as if it is a statement by either of you.
The statement is included because I am expecting the thread to be closed shortly so Im trying to make this thread as short as possible by refuting possible arguments before they are put. I am trying to get a -satisfactory- answer to my question before the thread is closed.

You can weasel around it all you like but you have not convinced me you were not trying to make it look like a statement to that effect as been put forward by someone resposible for the game and since the post starts off with " Hi Don " anyone reading it would think I had suggested this.

The reason your threads get closed is becasue you don't accept answers that you disagree with and both Andy and I and Shrapnel are well aware of how skillfully you walk just the other side of the line though had the new rules been in place some time ago you wouldn't be here now

The REASON the MG34/42s are not modeled as HMG's is becasue the tripod version was always modeled as a MMG and no consideration was given to the ranges it was capable of firing when the telescopic sight. I do not care one little bit if it was discussed on the "old DOS forum" becasue paid next to zero attention to what was said there in part becasue of people who were willing to argue on and on and on and on and what past for "moderators" let it happen


I am fully aware of the ranges the Mg34/42 was capable of firing from the Lafette with the telescopin sight but despite what you claim it was NOT set up with the sight normally even though photographs may give the impression it was

With the introduction of the MG34, a heavy MG tripod with optical sight was also introduced. The heavy tripod known as the Lafette 34 and the optical sight known as the MG Z 34 ‘MG Zieleinrichtung 34’. This was considered to be the world’s finest and most advanced tripod mount ever developed for the light machine gun. It first appeared in the 1930s, and proved to be outstanding in any role. The main role was to transform the MG34 into a heavy machine gun role. The question of searching fire from the heavy machine gun was solved with the automatic searching fire device. This device was incorporated into the Lafette design and proved to be very unique. When activated, the searching fire device would automatically index up and down as the gun recoiled within its cradle. When the MG42 was introduced, a Lafette 42 was also introduced being the same in everyway as the Lafette 34 model apart from the machine gun locking brackets. When used by trained troops in action, it became a deadly platform for precision accuracy. It weighed approximately 20 Kg which made it a bulky item to carry. Many accessories were issued with the tripod including the optical sight, but many of the tripods were not used with the optical sight. They were simply just used as a platform and the MG34 was fired by open sight.

It's ultimate accuracy at those ranges with the ROF the Mg34 and even more so the Mg42 was capable of is debateable but if someone is trying to do is get a lot of rounds 2000+ yards DR in the same general area it was certainly capable of doing that and I have made a note to review this info whenever we decide to start work on the games again and perhaps add a HMG version.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
If I might be allowed to poke my pointy little snout out of my burrow once more;
Your suggestion that 2000+ is the effective range for the 34/42 sounds right, in the reference you supplied it states this
"With ease the Lafette could with the sight launch a firestorm of bullets over 3 kilometers away"
also
http://homepage.eircom.net/~nightingale/mg42.html
MG34 2000m-3000m
MG42 3500m
http://www.wwiiguns.com/display_articles.php?id=9
MG34 3500m
http://www.gdrecon.co.uk/mg42.html
"this all weighed in at some 30 kg, but gave the operator accurate fire over 2miles. (3218m)"

You havn't confirmed wether the current MMG range of 24 is based on the MG3s' effective range when mounted on pintle/simple type tripod. Ive yet to see a WW2 gun on a pintle/simple mount, they all seem to be on lafette tripod. Because lafette tripod has its own recoil then the MMG version very likely has as good as or better effective range than the other regular WW2 pintle/simple mounted HMGs.

Looking at the other HMGs in the game there remains the anomaly of the 12.7mm calibre range.
All weapons of 12.7mm calibre get a range of 40 hexes, TMGs, CMGs, AA, HMGs.

It would seem sensible to drop these weapons range back to 30 hexes to give 34/42 HMGs the correct range relative to this category of weapon.

For the Russian weapon 124 "12.7mm DShK HMG"
from
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg03-e.htm
We have
"despite its weight, could not provide the necessary gun stability and vibration dampening for accurate long range fire"
For 12.7mm 50cal,
The range fo 40 hexes sometimes quoted is against 'area' targets, what this actually means I dont know but the regular 1500 range applies for 'point' targets.

7.62mm HMGs can also reach out to 40 hexes. So all HMGs in 7.62 and 12.7mm calibres should have the same range either 30 or 40. Both are firing over open sights and have rounds stable to 2000m.
50 cal has a ROF about 140rpm So these calibre weapons arnt capable of putting up the sustained fire that the 7.62 calibre HMGs do. They are closer to autocannons than HMGs.

Reducing the 12.7 to 30 is the better option as the 12.7mm calibre (40 hexes) would no longer out-range the 20mm calibre (30 hexes)
This change would also address a play-balance issue, the Allied 12.7 mm calibre outranging the Axis 20mm calibre.
After all most 20mm cannon would have telescopic/gun sights.
Best Regards Chuck

[DRG]

The Mg34/42 MMG range is based on it use on a tripod without the telescopic sight.

Tell me Chuck, have you or have you not brought up the range of the 12.7/50 cal a number of times in the past....

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi DOn
Well the question of MG34 range has certainly been brought up several times before and now finally in this thread that topic receives the attention it deserves.
I am hoping that this signifies the dawning of a new age or rapprochement, and in that frame of mind Im hoping that the 12.7m calibre might also get its correct range, 30 hexes.
That subject is discussed in this thread.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32870
It a confusing thread but as far as I can make out no unrefuted justification for the 12.7 calibres extra range is given other than that it is a 'design' decision. Design decision still doesnt answer why the extra range is allowed.
I think its just a matter of someone seeing 2000m as the 50 cal area target range and not seeing the 1500m point range. And putting it in the game without any further thought, however as the game has evolved and especially since HMGs got the peculiar artillery style blast zone its become I think a major unwarrented advantage to the Allies vis a vee the Axis.
It might also have been mentioned elsewhere I cant be sure but its clearly incorrect, "hisorically"
Best regards Chuck