YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Isokron's Midgard wins!] - Page 20

WraithLord · #**191** July 5th, 2009, 12:56 PM

Executor, ano: are you saying that the 3.17 MP GotG map contains fatal, balance wise, errors?- if so, what do you suggest?- Do you want to make a fix and upload it to the server as a user submitted map?- Otherwise I see no point in cont. this discussion re. this game, we will just have to make do with this version, which is the most "fixed" version of the map to date.

re. Ermor, yes, I understand your points and I agree dom restriction would work better. I'll remember that for the next YARG.

ano · #**192** July 5th, 2009, 01:07 PM

Yes, I think it does contain issues that affect the balance. Center top region is wastelands+mountains, middle bottom region is swamps, left bottom region is wastelands+mountains while center region consists mainly of farmlands (approximately 12 packed farmlands). Yes, I think that whether you start in one of the former or in the latter will pretty much decide the game for you. Is it balance wise? Probably yes. Is it fatal? Yes, if you start in a "dead" region.
On top of that random starting locations mean that some people may have their capitals very close while other will have a lot of place to expand. Does it affect balance? Probably yes. Also, I think I described all my reasons and points quite clearly.
What do I suggest? I wrote it yesterday saying that I have a free Sunday and may spend some time working on the map but noone reacted.
I am probably still able to do it but only if people want too. If everyone is ok with starting in dead mountain\wasteland region then I'm ok too. But if it occasionally happens to me I'll probably won't stay for long.

Zeldor · #**193** July 5th, 2009, 01:14 PM

Are you sure you checked really the MP map with correct version? I know it is true for SP version, but MP one just looks like that on graphics, but when you look at terrain types it's really different.

WraithLord · #**194** July 5th, 2009, 01:15 PM

ano, your points are clear. while I can live with whatever fate would give me I can relate to why you'd prefer a more balanced map. I have no objections to that and in-fact would appreciate if you'd want to go through the map and try to fix it.
If you do manage to come up with something acceptably balanced I'll restart the game with it (after you UL it to the server).

Thank you for your involvement and offer to help!

ano · #**195** July 5th, 2009, 01:17 PM

Zeldor
Double-checked it...
It's true about wastelands\mounts at N and SW and farmlands in the center. Not so true about swamps because some were changed

Executor · #**196** July 5th, 2009, 01:18 PM

WL, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining in any way about the map, it's your game - your rules, I don't have a problem with anything, well maybe Ermor a bit.

I'm just saying, every map contains "fatal, balance wise, errors" as you said. And a lot of wins can be predetermined by those flaws as everyone is well aware. So it may not be a bad idea to fix them a bit if possible, since it'll make the game more enjoyable for everyone, not just the few lucky starts.

And I am as well good with what fate gives me, however others usually are not.

ano · #**197** July 5th, 2009, 01:18 PM

WraithLord
To change the map you actually don't have to restart the game as far as I remember. It is one of the "settings" that llamaserver allows to be changed by admin.
Ok, I'll work on the map today and post the results here.
Executor
You once again voiced my thoughts

Executor · #**198** July 5th, 2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ano

Executor
You once again voiced my thoughts

StrictlyRockers · #**199** July 5th, 2009, 03:39 PM

The game will always involve quite a bit of luck, no matter how much you try to avoid this. That said, I am happy with ano attempting to make the starting locations as balanced as possible. I'd like to see the final version of the map we will use. I will be satisfied with it almost certainly. I am ready to get started on this map, too. Nothing will ever be perfectly balanced. I think that is part of the fun of the game, and spending too much time on attempting to accomplish the impossible is a lesson in futility.

I don't think it's a good idea to try to nerf Ermor to the point that they are playable in a game like this. I vote to simply keep them out of this and future RAND games. It seems easier than putting artificial constraints on them like a dominions cap or a more valuable capital for VP. Keep R'lyeh out, as well. Don't try to hobble them in some way just to include them. This is a clugy and stilted solution to something that is not a problem.

ano · #**200** July 5th, 2009, 03:48 PM

StrictlyRockers
I nearly finished the map and will post it here soon with comments.
Regarding balance and such things I may tell you that during Qwerty game (which I mentioned somewhere above) I decided not to create games with random locations anymore and the next game I hosted I spent some time to dive into the mapmaking process. The result was really cool in Stasis game - people were absolutely satisfied with the balanced starts.
That's why now I prefer to play with predefined starts in every game I participate. As Executor correctly said above, it is impossible to eliminate the luck element in this game and it should not be done, but maps and start locations can and should be balanced to make the game more interesting and competitive and more dependent on player skill than on blind luck.