Sharivar - LA game 4 bussy ppl. Complete. Wraithlord wins. - Page 11

Kuritza · #**101** November 24th, 2009, 10:14 AM

Now, there is one flaw in this logic. Well, other than everyone should, in theory, try to win, not just skip turns waiting for the inevitable end. What you should and what you shouldnt is not defined indeed.
Let me try to explain.

1) Nobody likes to gang on Ermor, especially early in the game, because Ermor is damn hard and it dominions makes sure you will only get wastelands after all your (wasted) efforts.
2) Unchecked, a well-played Ermor almost invariably becomes one of the major forces.
3) Usually, there's another well-played strong nation.
4) They declare war on each other.
5) If you fight a well-played Ermor alone, you are more or less doomed. Any losses you inflict on him, he just shrugs off as more undead rise from the graves. 200, 400, 600 undead killed in one combat mean nothing to him. Any losses he inflicts on you are painful. And its hard to counter darkness + rigor mortis, you know... because solar brilliance, the only counter to darkness, also blinds your own troops making them useless. And its harder to cast.

6) Most likely, Ermor will emerge victorious in the end. And nobody else will be in a position to challenge him, so its game over.

Against any living nation, you will stand a chance because its a matter of diplomacy and skill. Against Ermor, when he kills his only rival, you can only give up.
I have tried explaining it in another game, and was laughed at. Well, lets see how you laugh when Ermor kills Dimaz.

rdonj · #**102** November 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM

No, I agree, ermor has probably an 80% or greater chance to win this game at this point. However, I don't really think that gath being the victor in the battle between the two of them would really make much of a difference in the long run. Gath is sort of ridiculously strong right now and growing stronger. And ermor is the only nation bordering him that has even the remotest chance of killing him 1 on 1, midgard is a shambles, and MAN is the only other nation bordering him.

Ermor is bordered by just me (jomon) and gath, and together we could probably kill ermor and divide the spoils, so to speak. Then gath would proceed to walk all over me/everyone else and win the game, unless someone has a magnificent trick hiding up their sleeve (I am not this person). I don't think I'd be able to defeat either gath or ermor one on one at this point, and I think finding help in killing either of those two monsters would prove to be a near impossible task this game, as there are just not many people who border them and the few that do really don't have much opportunity to harm them.

Then there is another reason that ermor is going to win, and that is that I am playing this game very, very casually and can't really be bothered with the normal sorts of details that help win games. Such as attacking ermor when he's weak trying to kill off pythium (and then being ravaged by gath once he finds JOMON living in an ermorian wasteland...) or attempting to expand into neighbors and creating a powerful, single state instead of a collection of three modestly powerful nations in the same space. Whether I won or not, someone would have. Instead, being a peace-loving hippie at heart, I organized the Alliance to Save Lizards from Fishmen and ruined the chances of another would be power that could have possibly united the northeastern quadrant and formed a powerful enough nation to maybe stand up to ermor or gath. And like me, no one else up here in the northeast seems to be much of a warmonger

.

So, ermor or gath. And I am betting on ermor as he is at the point already where he should have near-limitless chaff, even if his research is not so hot.

WraithLord · #**103** November 24th, 2009, 12:34 PM

Very interesting arguments. However Gath is very strong as is and getting stronger every turn. Led by an expert player that I respect based on bitter experience it is currently #1 in power balance.

True, I wish to change that for my own selfish reasons

If I fail to act now then it's game over - Gath wins. So, more or less, this conflict is mandatory.

Now, don't forget that chaff doesn't win games. It's gems and research that do. So 600 undead are nothing compared to mind hunts, or RoS, or SCs etc. Ermor is way behind on research so it may look scary but it's true offensive power is severely limited. Had I been in Gaths position I estimate that I'd have killed Van and then Ermor w/o real difficulty.

Hey, if enough players want it I could consider keeping the NAP with Gath and just let him win

Dimaz · #**104** November 24th, 2009, 12:55 PM

In 1 on 1 war I think I'll be able to win. In fact, I was more or less preparing for it since discovering of Ermor as a neighbor. But, unfortunately, Midgard decided to interfere and I made some mistakes during this war, which slowed me down, so now my forces are rather scattered and now I can continue with Midgard or switch to Ermor, not both. OK, I see that no one is going to join here, so probably it'll be another win for Ermor.

rdonj · #**105** November 24th, 2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Very interesting arguments. However Gath is very strong as is and getting stronger every turn. Led by an expert player that I respect based on bitter experience it is currently #1 in power balance.

True, I wish to change that for my own selfish reasons

If I fail to act now then it's game over - Gath wins. So, more or less, this conflict is mandatory.

Now, don't forget that chaff doesn't win games. It's gems and research that do. So 600 undead are nothing compared to mind hunts, or RoS, or SCs etc. Ermor is way behind on research so it may look scary but it's true offensive power is severely limited. Had I been in Gaths position I estimate that I'd have killed Van and then Ermor w/o real difficulty.

Hey, if enough players want it I could consider keeping the NAP with Gath and just let him win

Nah, I'd rather let the scenario play itself out and see who comes out on top. But if we're already sure we know who's going to win I guess we could call the game if you and gath really wanted :P

WraithLord · #**106** November 24th, 2009, 05:01 PM

If we did all that then what's the point of playing anyway?
Just calculate player_experience*f1+nation_power_rate*f2+whatever and whoever comes first wins the game, on turn 1

Now there's a grain of truth here so I don't ridicule, just pointing out that such an argument can spoil games depending on how soon it's made.

The game is like a story unfolding as we go. Drama and tragics, heroic deeds and betrayals all mixed. So Gath jumped Ulm and then Van. One practically dead and the other 3/4 of the way to the graveyard. No wonder Ermor is interested in joining the party

Being last in research by a big margin means Ermor is not a top notch killer but rather a stupid mean-looking bully. Taking on Gath may well prove the (real) death of Ermor. Come-on Van, hold on mate so we at least stand a chance

Go figure, perhaps Pan would come out the better from all this exchange or perhaps the hungry sharks would tear at bleeding Gath so Ermor gets all pain but no gain

Trumanator · #**107** November 24th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Is it even possible to have LA Ermor in the game w/out drama?

Oh, and Gath didn't really jump Ulm, Ulm foolishly attacked Gath when they didn't see any giants.

WraithLord · #**108** November 24th, 2009, 05:42 PM

right. and Van has declared war on Gath as well. Hey, and now I broke my NAP with Gath.
Would I end up as they did?- Oh my, I may have made a mistake.

Kuritza · #**109** November 24th, 2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumanator

Is it even possible to have LA Ermor in the game w/out drama?

Well there are just three possibilities, as far as I can tell from my experience.

1) Ermor is led by a newbie.
2) Ermor is led by an expert player, but his neighbours know they have to unite against him.
3) Ermor wins.

Of course, Gath is also a very special nation in LA, being the only nation able to recruit quite decent SC. So perhaps... perhaps... things may go differently this time.
But Dimaz and me, well, we are really tired of games following the third route. There are only so much times same scenario can be enjoyable.

Ok, I'll leave you to your sheming now, sorry guys.

Aethyr · #**110** November 25th, 2009, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimaz

In 1 on 1 war I think I'll be able to win. In fact, I was more or less preparing for it since discovering of Ermor as a neighbor. But, unfortunately, Midgard decided to interfere.

Well, that's one perspective. My perspective is that I attacked you in response to your implied threat. While I'll grant you that I may have misinterpreted your original intent, the fact remains that I reacted to the threat I believed you presented at the time. In retrospect (as you've noted) it would have been wiser for me to let you and Ermor duke it out and bide my time.