Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Puke:
now, i dont think this can be done, because i think we thought about thinking about it before (confused yet?), but heres the regergitated idea anyway:

can we make a tech that is only available through trade / shipcapture + analysis? (i dont think so.)

if so, you can make a monstor scanner that can detect monsters and their homeworld, but you can only research it after caputring a monster ship and analyzing it. or starting on high-tech, of course. but i dont think that can be done normally, because the tech (or its pre-reqs) would always show up in the tech tree, unless it was racial, and if it was racial, then it couldnt be gained through analysis / reverse-engineering.

what you COULD do though, is make it super-expensive, so it would take 100 million research units or something. then the only practical way to gain the tech, wouild be through analysis. unless you run into max-int problems, but i think research costs use long-int. so it should be okay.

I think Suicide Junkie found a way to do something similar; it allows you to build racial-based components, but I don't think you can research on your own after the analysis. IIRC, it involved 3 techs (A, B and C):

Tech C provides the desired components, and has Tech B as a prerequisite (NO racial linkage).
Tech B provides Tech C, and has Tech A as a prerequisite (again, NO racial linkage).
Tech A provides Tech B, AND has a racial ability requirement.

Then, if you have the right racial ability, you can research (or start with, depending on setup) Tech A, which grants Tech B (and possibly other things, but those are irrelevant to the discussion at hand). Tech B can then be researched to find Tech C (and, again, possibly other things that are not relevant to this discussion). Finally, Tech C can be researched to generate the appropriate components.

However, if you do NOT have the right racial ability, you can't research Tech A, and therefore cannot get Tech B or Tech C (normally). But you CAN analyze a ship with Tech C components and gain tech levels in Tech C. But I don't think you can research Tech C on your own.

It's possible that I've missed something in the explanation; perhaps if Tech B provides both the components and Tech C, then you can get Tech C as a researchable area by analyzing captured components; and, of course, Tech C would still have to include copies (maybe inferior copies) of the desired components.

How's THAT for confusing?

[Rollo]

Thanks for your feedback everybody. Sorry for the late replies. Still working on the mod. And focus remains on the AI, but progress is very slow at the moment.

HEMAN,
1) actually checking out the D-Mod for more stuff is already in my to-do-list . I do however have to be careful what to add in order not to destroy the balance and/or screw up the AI. I like the mercenary commanders a lot, hopefully I can find a way to implement them to some degree. Torps already have a to hit bonus in DNM and also armor-shield skipping torps added at the end of the research.
2) yes, more ruins. I'd also like that. A converter facility is a good idea. I think, however, that it should not be better than the standard facility and also more expensive. A lot of the ancient tech works that way. It either has a unique ability or it is not as effective as the component that can be researched.
3) I think Puke had a good idea about visible homeworlds. Check below...
4) I agree. The AI uses the open warp ship kinda wierd . Nothing I can do about that really. If you find that too annoying, you can remove the open warp ship from the monster build queue.

Puke,
great idea! I think that is possible to do. How about adding a tech area of 'Monster Lore' or something like that. Whenever you analyse a monster you get one level of that. First levels would only include hints about the monsters and some background info. Once you get more levels, you get some useful components and ultimately the sensor to see their homeworld. (come to think of it, this would also be a good way to include some wacky tech without screwing up other AI. Also it would the make the monsters great prices for hunting down, since you can get certain tech by those means only).

Miles,
very interesting. Monsters vs. GP sounds fun . I would very much like to check that out. Can you post the files? It never ocurred to me that planet cloaks work on weapon platforms.

DirectorTsaarx,
I think in your example it works like this. If you don't have the racial trait,
Tech A cannot be be gained by any means
Tech B can be gained through analysis, but cannot be researched
Tech C can be researched, once Tech B is known

So back to the idea of tech gained though capture/analyze monsters. If 'Monster Lore' was a type B tech, you would need to capture X monsters to get level X of that tech. Sounds like an interesting thing (if it works...).

Cheers,
Rollo

[ January 22, 2003, 17:43: Message edited by: Rollo ]

[Rollo]

okay, I checked this out Last night and it does work .

Just for testing I added a Monster Lore tech area that can only be gained by analyzing captured monsters. It definately gives food for thought...
Of course that would mean that monsters (at least some of them) can be captured. Currently that is not so.
Hmm, maybe add another monster type that can be captured and have the AI only build one or two of them at a time (brainbug?). Then they would be valued prizes.
As I said, food for thought... I am happy with suggestions as I am not the most innovative guy around here .

Rollo

[Urendi Maleldil]

Just take away the MC ability on some of the "smarter" monsters and reduce the boarding defense on some of the "weaker" ones. Most monsters would be "too dumb" to be subverted and some would have weak immune systems unable to cope with space marines.

[dogscoff]

Oh, if you're doing that, make a "monster trainer" component. It seems kinda silly to have a boarding party taking control of a monster.

Of course, the only sensible way to apply it (without re-writing all the capture techs) would be to make the monster trainer exactly the same as a boarding party except for the name and picture. You'd still be able to capture ships with monster trainers and monsters with boarding parties, but most of the time people would be going for just one or the other and so it wouldn't happen often. They could also willingly refrain from using them inappropriately if they wanted.

It would be good component for roleplay, basically. =-)

[Miles]

Originally posted by Rollo:
very interesting. Monsters vs. GP sounds fun . I would very much like to check that out. Can you post the files? It never ocurred to me that planet cloaks work on weapon platforms.

Erg. My hacks are quite ugly. Please give me a couple days to tidy it up and I will send it to you.

You realize that this stuff is quite unbalanced. I can really only see 3 types of gameplay/storytelling possible:

• Single Play: Terra Uber Alles - Computer takes one super race, human takes the other. Duke it out in the midst of a galaxy of midgets.
• Multi Play: Hang together - AI takes Monsters. Bunch-o-humans take normal races. Work together or die.
• Multi Play: Eddore vs Arista - AI takes Monsters. Bunch-O-humans take normal races. Moderator takes Galactic Patrol. Moderator acts as a traditional GM. Intervenes with ships/resources as needed to help game play/story-telling.

Option 2 (Hang together) is very hard to balance, since it depends on the cleverness and co-operation of a number of humans.
Miles

[Miles]

Originally posted by Rollo:

It never ocurred to me that planet cloaks work on weapon platforms.

It seemed to be the easiest way to guarentee that the AI always provided a new colony with a sector cloak. The AI seemed to have a bunch of problems with the level 5 sector cloak untill I modified the component so that it had both level 5 sector cloak & level 5 sensor abilities.

Miles

[Taera]

Hello everyone, in the middle of updating Taera Hive Imperium Graphics. Taera gone gold! (you'll see).

It wont probably be published today, more likely tomorrow (i want to work on fleet, fleet alternate, racial portrait, infantry well) and untill then - this is the only mod that actually has this race, what do you people think about it? Anything i should change/alter/improve?

[Binford]

Originally posted by Rollo:
Are people still playing DNM? I haven't gotten a lot of feedback after the Last release. Which means: a) the Last Version is running stable with no bugs, or b) it is not getting played.

Well, I play every time the DevNull2 game runs on PBW! Very interesting game its turned into - I thoroughly look forward to every turn!

Should get even MORE interesing in the next few turns as the tension increases.

Any interest in starting up another DNM PBW game? DN2 is at turn 90 now, so we should see some resolution in the next 20-30 I think.

This time I think we'll start LOW tech with MEDIUM cost to slow down the mad weapons race some. And I am not sure at all about the MOnsters being in - I have enjoyed it myself, but I started far enough away to be able to handle them, 2-3 players got totally wiped out early... And I downgraded them a bit before adding them in the game)

I personally would love another DNM game, but only wanna play if we have 8 or more.

Binford

[Dralasite]

I just started playing a devnull mod game, it its fantastic! Thanks for all the work that you've done. So far, I don't have any issues, but I'm just getting into the mid game stage.