Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by Sombre

qm has said before that nation balance is not the primary concern. Obviously it is something that CBM works towards addressing, but I don't know where you get that it's the 'overall goal'.

I'm assuming it's the overall goal because it's the only overall goal that's worthwhile for a mod that makes as many changes as it already does. If you would rather it not change overall balance between nations, then there are a large number of things that will have to be done to restore the balance back to what it is in vanilla. The nations with light cavalry, for example, will have to have the power of their other units reduced, or costs increased so that the improvements to cavalry don't upset the balance between nations. Niefelheim will need some major changes to unit costs so that the extra 100 gold cost on niefel jarls and the smaller cold auras on niefel giants doesn't reduce the nation's power relative to other nations.

Every change that is made to a nation changes the relative balance between nations. To argue otherwise is ignorant.

[Micah]

*eye roll* I used a W9F9 bless on the jags when I did the comparison and the first hit did surprisingly little, since the Warriors have such good defense and the single attack the unhurt jags have isn't enough to hit them.

I can't imagine eagles doing better, but run a test and let me know. The Elemental warriors are only 25g as well, not 35. Luckily they don't HAVE to be non-cap, since they're not a great midgame unit and you want to switch to other stuff, as previously mentioned by other posters. You also have a pretty badass S9 pretender with a lot of dominion power since you start at 3 dom, which is kind of nice. The higher dominion also means you have a high holy limit and can outnumber them early on when raw troop numbers are more important.

As far as the archer comment: I was responding to the assertion that they fold to other sacreds, not that they're uncounterable. To delve into more strategy for a moment though, TC has excellent archers and good shielded infantry, so it shouldn't be too hard to archer screen with a few guys and tear their archers up with a fire archers command to save your sacreds. It's not foolproof, but it's gonna make life hard for your opponent.

[Sombre]

Who is arguing otherwise? That statement is a truism to the point that it's meaningless. What you're talking about is the goal of the mod. Still. Even if qm never said another peep about CBM there are plenty of posts about the intentions behind CBM. Plenty of IRC logs. And even without those, the changes themselves tell a pretty clear story of balancing units, items, spells against each other. There have definitely been changes made which were primarily about nation balance, for example the original toning down of Hinnom's starting army (before a patch did it).

Anyway, no need to argue about it. Just ask qm if you want to know. Send him an email or pm, that's probably easiest.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Tollund

I'm assuming it's the overall goal because it's the only overall goal that's worthwhile for a mod that makes as many changes as it already does.

Nope. The only overall worthwhile goal, obviously, is to make the game more fun, by increasing diversity. How is diversity increased? By balancing under-used stuff.

Originally Posted by Tollund

If you would rather it not change overall balance between nations, then there are a large number of things that will have to be done to restore the balance back to what it is in vanilla.

Obviously, "not changing the overall balance" is not a goal of CBM. The overall balance will be changed, as a side effect of making under-used stuff more worthwhile.

There's nothing stopping you from making your own nation-balancing mod, if that's what you want.

I think Chris P has a project like that started. And there's another mod somewhere that gives all players identical nations, if you're looking for perfect balance for some reason.

[chrispedersen]

Right, my balance mod makes changes to oceania, all agarthas, and abysia.

I had changes started for machaka, and eriu.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Micah

*eye roll* I used a W9F9 bless on the jags when I did the comparison and the first hit did surprisingly little, since the Warriors have such good defense and the single attack the unhurt jags have isn't enough to hit them.

I can't imagine eagles doing better, but run a test and let me know. The Elemental warriors are only 25g as well, not 35. Luckily they don't HAVE to be non-cap, since they're not a great midgame unit and you want to switch to other stuff, as previously mentioned by other posters. You also have a pretty badass S9 pretender with a lot of dominion power since you start at 3 dom, which is kind of nice. The higher dominion also means you have a high holy limit and can outnumber them early on when raw troop numbers are more important.

As far as the archer comment: I was responding to the assertion that they fold to other sacreds, not that they're uncounterable. To delve into more strategy for a moment though, TC has excellent archers and good shielded infantry, so it shouldn't be too hard to archer screen with a few guys and tear their archers up with a fire archers command to save your sacreds. It's not foolproof, but it's gonna make life hard for your opponent.

I agree that tc has excellent archers; I agree that an S9 pretender absolutely rocks. I just do not agree that W5E's outclass jags.

I also don't think that you are going to have a higher dominion score than mictlan.

Mictlan can afford to dump resources, heat, and growth/death if need be, and even two points of drain. TC just can't afford to do that - it need resources for archers; doesn't have a heat preference; and needs growth for its old age mages.

Finally, Mictlan can afford drain, by using a dominion pocket strategy, whereas all TC's mages are cap only, with crap outside its capital and hence, should not afford a drain scale.

Mictlans preferred bless chasis long ago was the oracle; since thats now no longer available the blood fountain is probably next best. Sucks on the endgame - but in terms of dominion the fountains Dom 4 under CBM is BETTER than the Dom 3 you're referencing. A typical mictlan starting bless will be an f9w9b4 with Dom7. however you certainly can see dom 8 easily, as well as an 9-9-9 bless.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Could one of the way to balance nations just be to increase the gold and/or resource settings at the beginning of the game. If sacreds are a smaller percentage of armies, it may make the game more balanced.

[Micah]

I was just speaking about the sacreds, not the nations as a whole, though you're blowing 5 scale picks on that build vs a TC with s9w9 at any level of dominion (the starting dom doesn't cause enough of a difference to matter) and I doubt the 2 points of strength will change the battle results by much.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Sir_Dr_D

Could one of the way to balance nations just be to increase the gold and/or resource settings at the beginning of the game. If sacreds are a smaller percentage of armies, it may make the game more balanced.

Yes and no.
At first glance making a 'richer'game seems as if it would mean more normal troops compared to sacreds.

However, it doesn't actually change the equation tooo much. Blesseds expand faster, and so have a steeper ramp up on their incomes. So instead of building a castle on turn 4, they build it on turn 3.

What it does tend to do is compress the game. Expansion against indies tends to happen faster. Armies tend to get larger faster.

There are also other effects. Niefle, hinnom, agartha a few other nations tend to love rich resource and gold games, and it tilts the balance in favor of them, rather than dom limited smaller nations.

Spell research easier is a bigger effect, in my opinion.

[kianduatha]

I finally noticed something that bugs me: Ichtycentaurs and Trident Knights don't have a hoof attack. They should, at the very least on land. Give Trident Knights lances too and you might even see people using them.