British OOB June 1944 - additional formations?

[Cross]

Gila I think you are right, the MC and jeep must be close in vulnerability; which is probably how it should be. I wasn't aware that the MC was better over rough terrain, but that makes sense.

John, I recall reading about an inquiry during the war, to discover if the Boys had KO'd any TANKS, and this limited (perhaps division sized) investigation couldn't find a single example. Which may have been part of the motivation to find a replacement in the PIAT.

However, I have read that Britain supplied the Boys to Finland and it was used effectively in the Winter War against light Russian tanks. I've also read about light Japanese tanks being KO'd by the Boys.

But I guess calling it an "anti-tank" rifle was a bit optimistic by 1942.



Cross

[JohnHale]

Originally Posted by Cross

it was used effectively in the Winter War against light Russian tanks. I've also read about light Japanese tanks being KO'd by the Boys.


Cross

In the game, I have yet to kill an SdKfz251 with a Boys, let alone a light tank! Nor do I think I've ever immoblised one (which would be more realistic, I feel)

Conversely, when playing against the Italians I have suffered losses to the Solothurn AT Rifle.... :-(( So - was the Boys an inferior ATR as modelled in real life?

[Cross]

Hi Don,

MC Battalion

Here's an excellent discussion and explanation of the British Motorcycle Battalions 1939/1940:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...ion%201940.htm

MC Scouts

If there's any interest in providing British motorcycle scouts here's OOB for a Recon battalion 1941/1942:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...0to%201942.htm

Regarding the elements of a Recon company it says this:

Each Scout Platoon had a small headquarters consisting of a single Universal Carrier with Bren gun and anti-tank rifle. This carried the Subaltern, driver and an operator from the Signal Platoon, with the Platoon Sergeant and an orderly accompanying on motorcycles.

The single Infantry Platoon provided the Company with a not insubstantial dismounted element. Platoon HQ consisted of a Subaltern, Sergeant and orderly, each on a motorcycle. There were then two 15-cwt trucks, the first carrying a Corporal, rifleman and driver, plus an anti-tank rifle, the latter just a rifleman and driver. Each of the four Sections consisted of a driver and seven men, plus the officer's batman in one Section. Two were commanded by Corporals, two by lance-corporals. The three motorcyclists were each armed with a pistol, the remainder of the Platoon carrying rifles. Each Section was also issued a Bren gun and, in theory, a Thompson submachine gun, though it would be sometime before stocks of the latter became available.

Looking at the OOB for 1943 - 1945, it shows Recon Regiments and Motor Battalions continued to use MCs (with stens) in their Scout Platoons/troops.

MC Utility

I guess this is more of a game design decision. There's plenty of MCs available in almost every British frontline battalion throughout the war. But these would have been mostly single MC without sidecar which have little utility value. A 'Big 4' sidecar may be a fun addition as a utility vehicle, even if it's only available until 1941.



Cross

[DRG]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

Conversely, when playing against the Italians I have suffered losses to the Solothurn AT Rifle.... :-(( So - was the Boys an inferior ATR as modelled in real life?

The answers are on the web. Take two minutes and find out

The Solothurn cartidge was 20 x 138mm

The Boyes was 13.9 x 99mm


Don

[JohnHale]

Thanks!

[DRG]

Roughly 25 % - 30 % smaller

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Cross

In 1940 there were six British MC battalions. They used sidecars with Lewis guns attached. I would love to see these in the OOB. Two of these battalions were part of the BEF and were lost in France/Dunkirk.

AFAIK only one of the BEF's MC battalions went into action with its bikes: the 4th Northumberland Fusiliers. Amongst other things it provided recon for the British counter-attack at the Battle of Arras. I’ve found a couple of photos of them in the Imperial War Museum photographs collection. One of them shows that their sidecars were armed with Brens rather than Lewis guns.

Originally Posted by Cross

These are Home Guard MCs photographed during an exercise near Exeter in August 1941. I’m not sure about the LMG. I don’t think it is a Lewis. It may be a Bren with one of its relatively rare drum magazines.

There are a couple more photos of British MCs with Bren guns in this forum thread.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by JohnHale

One thing I noticed when transcribing the information on the Motor Battalion Scout Platoon was the presence of the Boys ATR - in game terms, this disappears in 1942.

As a side issue - has anyone ever killed anything using a Boys anti-tank rifle? Was it really as useless as modelled in the Game?

not really useless, they work better i groups of 3, 1 at front, 2 at sides, fire unil the panzer exposes its thin sides and rear, esp. IIIb/d wich has weaker armor and is the most common for france '40, watch out for those czech(or whererever they came from) tanks.

@cross Do you know wjhat was the criteria of the inquiry mentioned at #11? because a 14mm round *could* blow some pistons off an engine, damage tracks, kill the driver/gunner and such damage wich would make the vehicle useless, after all, a KO can be described in several diferent ways, e.g an immobile tiger is a pillbox, as it takes a tiger to tow a tiger, making 2 vehicles unavaiable?

[Imp]

However, I have read that Britain supplied the Boys to Finland and it was used effectively in the Winter War against light Russian tanks. I've also read about light Japanese tanks being KO'd by the Boys

I bet the Finns were impressed with it, definetly atributed to the Boys? there home grown ATR lahiti or something like is good still need several though.
Boys not sure if I have killed anything but damage immobolise yes. Either assaulting with or within a couple of hexes otherwise its just a suppresor IMHO.
Finns Lahiti is a diffrent mater kills very rare with one hit but have killed 3 armour with it possibly 4 with consecutive damage. T-26s T-60s AC etc

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

I bet the Finns were impressed with it, definetly atributed to the Boys? there home grown ATR lahiti or something like is good still need several though.
Boys not sure if I have killed anything but damage immobolise yes. Either assaulting with or within a couple of hexes otherwise its just a suppresor IMHO.
Finns Lahiti is a diffrent mater kills very rare with one hit but have killed 3 armour with it possibly 4 with consecutive damage. T-26s T-60s AC etc

Boyes - I have not killed much with these apart from class 1 armour little scout cars and Japanese tinfoil tankettes in the far east. The germans have little class 1 armour to kill bar the baby scout cars and sdkfz251s. Only the really early panzer 2 has any class 1 - the rest are reasonably OK with class 2 side.

However, they are annoying to fight against as German or Italian in the desert, since they respond in opfire to your tank fire and button your tanks up when dealing with UK infantry. This can be annoying if you get enough suppression to lose the target lock and have to use up rally. They will occasionally do a track hit as well.

My dad used one post war in his national service on minesweepers clearing the northern barrage. it was used to sink free floating mines, and did that job well. They laid out a bed of sandbags on the deck for the firer as that helped with the recoil.

Andy