Magic Items under CBM

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Squirrel, a short sword would always be used with a shield. There is absolutely no way a man wielding a two hander would ever win a duel against a shield using soldier.

...

Based on what? The shield-using soldier carries more weight and has worse line of sight. Shields are useful in a line, but in a duel they're mostly useless.

You are also exactly wrong on Pikemen The bane of pikemen were the rodeleros, the sword and shield wielding infantry. Please get your facts right

Um, no. Please read: Archer Jones. The Art of Warfare in the Western World. More citations available upon request.

Swiss pikemen being undefeated for 100 years is a matter of historical record, and undefeated means undefeated. Why the hell are you talking about a 16th-17th century spanish troops when the age of pike dominance was pre-15th century...

Sombre: with apologies, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

For a start, I like your changes.
Some general thoughts:

A problem with the 2handed Bane Blade weapon is,that its used by Bane`s and Bane Lords.

Also,its important to consider the constr level and the gem cost,especially when altering level 0,5 gem weapons.

Personally i would prefer to agree on the exact changes for the Wraith Sword first.Then we would have a nice and more expensive weapon to be compared to for balancing reasons.

Wraith Sword:

15 Dgems,Path 3D( 25Dgems,4D before)
Construction Level: 6

Damage- 16 (+7)
Attack- 4 (+2)
Defense- 5 (+2)
Length- 3

Partial Life Drain

overpowered?

- We can always decouple the 'weapon' used by the bane lords, with the bane weapon that we can construct. They can have different stats.

- What I am trying to do is raise the stats of the two handed weapon so that they are just as valueable as the one handed weapons. What should be asked is how the new statted two handed sword of sharpness compares with a single handed sword of sharpness used in combo with one of the level 0 shields. If with these new stats, people would always use the two handed version, then these stats are too powerfull. If people still almost always use the sword shield combo, even at construction level 0, then these new stats cannot be overpowered.

- I like your stats for the wraith sword. It seems about right.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Swiss pikemen being undefeated for 100 years is a matter of historical record, and undefeated means undefeated. Why the hell are you talking about a 16th-17th century spanish troops when the age of pike dominance was pre-15th century...

The rodeleros were utilised as anti pikemen units from early 16 century, they were used already in the Italian wars which was the golden age of swiss pikes. Later on pikemen, rodeleros and musketeers were combined to the spansih tercio.

Another question is of course why the romans, the archetype of short sword and shield troops, was able to beat the hellenistic spear and pike armies, as well all the barbarian invasions (the barbarians who used very mixed weapons, but are depicted by roman documents on many occasions to have used big two hander axes, swords and spears).

There is a reason why armies and duellists didn't use twohanded swords. They did suck if you wanted to stay alive. By making a twohander weapon as good as a one-hander+shield, something is going terribly wrong. Buff the attack and damage yes (the swiss pikes for example were very strong against other infantry when they attacked, but on defense against the rodeleros they were in serious trouble), but it doesn't hurt to have *some* realism in a fantasy game; two-handed weapons suck for defense, and that would be good to be given a thought

As for the suggested wraith sword stats, I think it is otherwise good except the defense bonus should at least not be *increased* from 3.

[chrispedersen]

Hey sombre.. in defense for some of the new people it takes a lot more than 5 minutes to really get a handle on modding capability.

And there are probably better ways to get them interested - but as far as I'm concerned you're one of the best there are... to bad we can't have modding classes.

I always wanted to make a "light lance" that cast solar brilliance and had the #charge tag.
Can't do it. Wish there were easier ways to add spells to weapons, or tages to units.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Sir_Dr_D

- We can always decouple the 'weapon' used by the bane lords, with the bane weapon that we can construct. They can have different stats.

yes.
But i dont think thats a good thing to do.
Seems not thematic for a low level item.
I would prefer to slightly tone your ideas down there.Otherwise the already pretty cheap and good banes could be too useful as suicide thugs.
2h Bane Blade
damage: 11(+2)
att: 3(+1)
def:3(+0)

What do you think?
Generally,the decay effect,not bad for early game/Assassins, should be the main reason to build it anyways and is the problem here regarding 1h vs 2h regardless of the changes that are done.
Another idea could be,stats staying the same,but giving it the life after death tag,sombres idea here.Not too useful,but funny.

- What I am trying to do is raise the stats of the two handed weapon so that they are just as valueable as the one handed weapons. What should be asked is how the new statted two handed sword of sharpness compares with a single handed sword of sharpness used in combo with one of the level 0 shields. If with these new stats, people would always use the two handed version, then these stats are too powerfull. If people still almost always use the sword shield combo, even at construction level 0, then these new stats cannot be overpowered.

Yes, and i completely agree with the pike.
Astral is very precious in CBM anyways,so making the pike a better choice for early game is nice ,imo.
But,for the matter of the sword of sharpness...its like someonelse mentioned: low level shields dont offer much.
And 1h weapon + shield is 10 gems,whereas 2h is 5 gems.
Early game,Dwarfen hammers are also seen less frequent,so that difference isnt neglectable imo.

I would prefer to see here :
2h sword of sharpness
damage:14(+2)
Att:3(+1)
def:4(+1)

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

As for the suggested wraith sword stats, I think it is otherwise good except the defense bonus should at least not be *increased* from 3.

Ah,on topic again
Yeah,thats the increase i am the most unsure about,too.
Thematically,though,i can justify it:
The Wraith sword is giving its wielder partial etherealness

Thats why i think,the Wraith Sword should offer pretty good Def compared to other 2h swords.
In addition,we got the Hell Sword already,for offense capability.

[chrispedersen]

Hmmm.

Interesting points all around. One thing perhaps I could contribute to the discussion - it would take fractionally more material, more magic to make a two hand weapon than one. Perhaps it makes more sense that the bigger effects culd be shifted to 2 handed weapons.

I realize its a bit unsettling, and that it would be a huge change.

But can the brands be made 2handed?

So a fire sword - one handed.. a fire brand.. two handed.
a dustdagger one handed.. a shadow brand two handed..

This would change the nature of thugs, and change the balance of the game a lot ..

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Hey sombre.. in defense for some of the new people it takes a lot more than 5 minutes to really get a handle on modding capability.

Of weapon and item modding? I don't think so. Maybe to fully realise what you can do with all the existing weapons listed in edi's DB and clever tricks with secondaryeffects etc, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about basic limitations. Understanding that weapons and items aren't the same thing.


If you changed the description of the wraithsword to say it wreathes the user in shadows or whatever, you could certainly justify extra def. Depends what you want the wraith sword to be - to me it clearly isn't suited to being an anti SC weapon, since its defining characteristic is partial lifedrain, which is basically useful against chaff. Does added def make it better as a chaff harvester? High enough def would. It would all around boost it of course.

I kinda like the idea of the wraithsword getting 2 attacks personally, making the most of the partial lifedrain.

[vfb]

I think we need to talk about longbows here too. Specifically: AP? Or not?

[Squirrelloid]

Jarkko, I have a reproduction of a 16th century german dueling manual that describes the use of a 2-handed sword, probably a bastard sword, in a duel. I reject your notion that 2-handed weapons weren't used for duels.

The rodeleros were used when pikemen were already tied up with other pikemen, and thus unable to employ their pikes (eg, Battle of Ravenna 1512). They also seem to have been acceptable weapons against the Aztecs - of course, just about anything would have been. When facing an unengaged pike block they lost horribly, such as the Battle of Seminara (1495). All told, rodeleros lasted all of maybe 40 years, mostly against the Aztecs, before their use was discontinued. They seem to have decided one battle that involved pikes. Hardly the nemesis of pike formations.