Can someone tell me about Machaka?

[BigDaddy]

Yes, CBM.

Why is did you have something to say about non-CBM?

I assume that since things cost half as much in CBM that the cost of the spiders made it necessary to take scales.

[Ink]

with CBM:

the reduced cost of spider riders has made them available for using as a workhorse unit. Machaka can depend on them rather than requiring something like the Colossal Fetish (something which will only become quickly useless as the game moves into midgame).

thus, DONT take a colossal fetish, rather go for a rainbow to provide paths/combinations needed for Machaka to have a chance in late game, and really good scales for Machaka to recruit the hell out of spider riders/knights.

Crone:
E1S3N4D4 (or something like that, give S for diversity and the other paths for missing combinations to forge key items)
Dom6-7 (good dom for good scales)
O3P3H3L-1G3M1 (max income dom)
asleep

recruit spider riders/knights and build lots of forts to boost reasearch (this is why you have such good scales)
research site searching
research evo to 5 or 6 for battle magic
research const to 8 for artifacts
research conj

havn't really tried this out in any real gameplay (ie MP), but it looks like the tack I would take with Machaka now.

[BigDaddy]

You think I could squeek it out with my favorite, an imprisoned astral rainbow master lich?
That is my SP favorite.

For 2player, I ussually go with somebody that uses indemic gems and has lots of that path. Preferably immortal, a titan, or immobile. Which seems less appropriate for MP.

I almost never choose an SC awake pretender, because you seem to lose your advantage by turn 20 or so.

I actually had the fetish set up as an astral somewhat rainbow mage (imprisoned).

However, I'm seeing more and more that by turn 20 some people can already be killed... Well, I ussually have a PK army at that point as any nation and essentially at any province size... But, I suppose it can happen to anyone. I find it's difficult to have an insurmountable rush before turn 20 and after that some of the provinces start to pay off.

I think people forget that all those provinces don't instantly pay themselves off, they have a rate of return. And despite what people always say, that they have an army design were their stuff doesnt' die to 'most indies,' the fact is that I know you take losses, 1 or 2... whatever. You take em as Jotenheim, you take'em with serpent cataphracts, with knights of various kinds...

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?

with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.

Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...

[Ink]

I was just playing with their spider knights in SP testing.

results: they are not going to cut it offensively
reason: they are size 5 with str 10 and no high damage attacks
why this matters: each spider will probably be attacking a different square, such that they can't gang up on and kill single units.
what to do: use them defensively. the spider knights are extra robust, and their webspit is a straight defensive tool, plus their size helps them congest up the battlefield. set spider knights to fire closest, place tons of machaka's cheap archers behind them.

also, given this analysis, blessing is definitely a bad idea with Machaka. The Black Hunters are but slightly improved spider riders, damage wise (11 vs 10 str, 18 vs 16 dam spider bite). plus they are cap only, and there are no sacred mages to benefit from something like a D bless. bad bad bad. Machaka is a scales nation only.

[chrispedersen]

I don't see the problem. spiders destroy indies just fine.
spiders with mage support kill SCS even better.

I also don't like paying upkeep on machaka archers.
When attacked you can pop out a lot of archers fast, and move to where needed with mapmove 2.

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ink

I was just playing with their spider knights in SP testing.

results: they are not going to cut it offensively
reason: they are size 5 with str 10 and no high damage attacks
why this matters: each spider will probably be attacking a different square, such that they can't gang up on and kill single units.
what to do: use them defensively. the spider knights are extra robust, and their webspit is a straight defensive tool, plus their size helps them congest up the battlefield. set spider knights to fire closest, place tons of machaka's cheap archers behind them.

also, given this analysis, blessing is definitely a bad idea with Machaka. The Black Hunters are but slightly improved spider riders, damage wise (11 vs 10 str, 18 vs 16 dam spider bite). plus they are cap only, and there are no sacred mages to benefit from something like a D bless. bad bad bad. Machaka is a scales nation only.

They work fine early game, because they have death poison, and enough str to kill undead, although, I'd probably prefer javelins and hoplites for undead... at least undead that webs and priests had trouble with.

Mid-game they make a nice wall to hide behind and cast spells.

Although I haven't really played multiplayer late game, I assume that they get mowed down by SC, because their skills aren't that high, their damage is Okish, but only 1 per square.

Some nations have troops that can kill some less SCs, such as Pythium emerald guards or serpent catphracts, giants with javelins... giants with javelins will kill most stuff...

I assume though, that picking will be slim for killing SCs this way in late game, and you'll have to have some size army and mages, or an SC control unit.

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?

I do not understand your answer at all. As far as I can tell your scales involved production 1, so going two steps further would be production 3.

Now even apart from that, 160 points is 160 points however you spend it. Luck and order is not a bad combination when you have a sizeable empire, which Machaka should achieve rather quickly. Going from imprisoned to sleeping is just 100 points and nets you about 2 more years of active pretender. Sleeping to awake is 150 points.

160 points is a lot and any such investment should give you a lot, otherwise it is just a bad investment.

with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.

The base cost of magic pics is 8, not 7. You are probably confusing it with the base cost of dominion. 160 points is the minimum difference possible with Machaka. And that requires you to take the Lord of Fertility. Any other pretender and the difference get larger.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.

Well, this does not differ significantly from how I do it, so my opinion remains the same.

What I will add is that you have incomplete intelligence during the expansion phase. This is bad for small numbers of spiders, because lots of troops, more or less regardless of which kind, present a very much increased risk of losing spiders.

If you send out parties of 4- Black Hunters, you will lose some of them, even if you keep away from what seems to be the harder indies.

Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...

Well, especially in CBM I prefer sloth 3. Spider Riders are good enough to quickly expand into most indies and groups of Black Hunters handle the rest. This gives me 15-20 provinces and a couple of castles the first year as well as giving me a lot more points to play with for the pretender.



Ink:
Evaluating Black Hunters through Spider Knights is not a good idea - they are very different. Just compare the performance of equally large groups of both of them to see what I mean.

I happen to agree that Black Hunters do not warrant any big bless. They manage quite well without any bless during expansion and they are very good deterrents against some rushes. Later in the game there are too many counters to them for them to be anything other than specialty units.