MP: Land Rand - Jotunheim Wins!

[WingedDog]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Perhaps a semi random assignment system would work. Each player chooses 3 nations and conflicts are resolved by a die roll.

In 'Art of War' I allowed players to repick a nation they get to another random one, but only once.

[Zeldor]

Actual RAND was best, as it was quite small and mostly skilled players. But map was totally unbalanced and so were nations, so it divided game into two leagues. Removing of gem-gens was surely a step forward. 8-12 may be best amount of players for RAND games and as community is generally more skilled now, it would be easier to get good selection of players. But I don't think we have any really balanced maps. And we'd need much more balanced version of CBM to eliminate randomness from nations [really, how can you have Sauro and Agartha compared].

But RAND game will still be a niche, fun if well made, but if someone wants more balanced and interesting game, simple ban on trading + semi-random is the way to go.

WingedDog:

I don't think Art of War is good example here. It had like hmm... 80% people sub out? +some people going AI wrecked the game +not wraparound map helped some people

[Micah]

I disagree, rand is great.

I think a lot of the vets like the RAND format precisely because it prevents crazy ganging. Artifacts was just a continual gang-bang of whichever player was doing the best, and that's a pretty frustrating mechanic. Eliminating diplo makes playskill matter more, not less, and in normal Dominions playskill is completely eclipsed by diplomacy, so it's nice to be able to get away from that mechanic if desired.

Granted, nations could be better balanced, but Dawn Rand has some pretty interesting contenders. Sauro is down and out, and the top 3 nations are Atlantis, Ermor and Kailasa...not exactly a usual suspects list. It's not like diplo helps out the crappy nations very much either, everyone knows you're just free territory. Nation-balancing is a mod discussion, not a format discussion, although some reroll capability on nation choice wouldn't be bad to keep out some of the really out-of-line nations.

What balance issues do you have with the Greece map? It's one of the best I've seen.

[WingedDog]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

WingedDog:

I don't think Art of War is good example here. It had like hmm... 80% people sub out? +some people going AI wrecked the game +not wraparound map helped some people

1) It has nothing to do with repick proposal.
2) Just dug up game thread, 7 out of 17 original players including you were subed. A little less then 80% IMO.
3) Only two players turned to AI, and it was far beyond early game stage. As far as I remember first defeat (not AI turning) was on turn 37.

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by Micah

I disagree, rand is great.

I think a lot of the vets like the RAND format precisely because it prevents crazy ganging. Artifacts was just a continual gang-bang of whichever player was doing the best, and that's a pretty frustrating mechanic. Eliminating diplo makes playskill matter more, not less, and in normal Dominions playskill is completely eclipsed by diplomacy, so it's nice to be able to get away from that mechanic if desired.

Granted, nations could be better balanced, but Dawn Rand has some pretty interesting contenders. Sauro is down and out, and the top 3 nations are Atlantis, Ermor and Kailasa...not exactly a usual suspects list. It's not like diplo helps out the crappy nations very much either, everyone knows you're just free territory. Nation-balancing is a mod discussion, not a format discussion, although some reroll capability on nation choice wouldn't be bad to keep out some of the really out-of-line nations.

Even with Rand, a lot still comes down to ganging up on nations. I don't think any one-on-one wars remain that way for long in MP. In Dawn RAND as I recall, Atlantis and Sauro fought a bit back and forth until large Ermorian armies arrived on the Sauro border poised to invade – soon after Sauro went into free fall. Not to say Sauro wasn’t outplayed, but its pretty tough to escape the ganging up mechanic in MP. RAND format just makes it less structured and saves the hassle of diplomacy.

btw - whatever happened to Dawn RAND - talk about a game languishing...

[Micah]

Right DC, but I'm not saying that multi-front wars are a diplo-only thing, but there's a big difference between what happened to Sauro in DR and what happened in artifacts.

Sauro was a victim of heavy poaching, and had a while to actually fight a somewhat fair war before Ermor became involved (Ermor didn't attack until Sauro's cap had been captured, in fact, IIRC), in Arti nations basically imploded in 3 turns as everyone launched simultaneous attacks on them.

[Zeldor]

Micah:

Try to imagine how would it look with really balanced nations. Doncorazon had not much time to play his nation, so he did not use his great nation and spot. Ermor has awesome spot on that map [see Warcry] and some nations had really extremely bad position [bad nation + weak spot] - Marverni, Ulm, C'tis and Agartha. You can try to come out of that position, but you are doomed from the start. Playing to achieve the most out of bad can be fun, but every player should have pretty much equal chance for winning. And Kailasa was probably one of the nominees for victory from the beginning on that map

I am not sure if what we have in LAND [big nations just eating small ones unable to organise anything to even put up a fight] is cool. Artifacts should be erased from our memores as an example of a game that should not exist. And now normal games without gem gens are much more appealing.

You also probably did not read my line about GreeceStain properly - I was complaining about Dawn map, Greece is probably the most balanced map around, but I don't think you can find 18 nations on similar level, unless making it multi-era RAND or giving vets weaker nations on purpose.

[Micah]

Zeldor - "But I don't think we have any really balanced maps." I don't see how this is referring specifically to Dawn, as it's pluralized. I can see how you meant to imply "any balanced maps for 8-12 players" but I think it was poorly contextualized, not poorly read. ;-)

I don't think the rest of the points have much difference compared to normal Dom. As you said, just look at Warcry for an example of that.

The solution to this isn't to ditch the rand concept, but to try to pare down the outliers and get some more modding solutions for balance.

Artifacts serves as an excellent example of what can go wrong in a game, and I think making light of the fact that it "shouldn't exist" is giving up a valuable milestone.

I agree with you on LAND, the map is too big and the player skill too divergent, but again, this is a problem with normal dom as well. The playskill question is also not magically solved with diplo, as weaker players often make incredibly BAD diplomatic plays.

[Zeldor]

I think we agree on general idea RAND is not passe, it can work, but I think it should be played with 8-12 players, on very balanced map [like Greece, but well, smaller and maybe 2-3 more provs per player or more farmlands, as some nations need them] with carefully selected nations [all weak, all average or all strong]. And for that I hope that next CBM really focuses more on nation balance [yeah, we will have to poke QM a bit on that], so it's easier to get that.

[Meglobob]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

MB, this is an excellent idea. I share your sentiment re. getting a boring/weak/ nation or a nation that you down right don't like to play. Happened to me as well in this game, in the past RAND, and in the past past RAND

I sucked it up and did the best I can but I was anything but inspired.

Perhaps a semi random assignment system would work. Each player chooses 3 nations and conflicts are resolved by a die roll.

Well, I am happy with all aspects of RAND games except getting a random nation that you might not want to play and agree with Wraithlord above. Sadly more work for Pasha would be the major drawback.

I am happy with the maps and personally don't want to see all nations becoming balanced vs each another. That would make the game really boring and I probably would not bother.

The exception to that is of course I would like to see weak nations like Machaka, Oceania, Agartha and Ulm made stronger so they have more of a chance. But thats a discussion for the main board/CBM thread. Note the way it is now, I would point blank refuse to play Machaka or EA/Ma Oceania in MP as they stand exactly no chance from turn 0, so whats the point?