Laying Mines problem since new Patch, Bug?

[Sinapus]

quote:

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Originally posted by Seawolf:
Bill,

1 other idea which I think is what happens here, Each "mine" actually represents a minefield that has been laid down. Additional "mines" make the field bigger to catch more ships.

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Well, in the game SE4 is based on, called Starfire, minefields are Groups of small autonomous missiles that attack ships entering their tactical hex that don't have the proper IFF code. They are defended against with point defense, and can be shot at by beam weapons if the ship has the right scanners, but only in that actual hex. (Small, difficult to detect targets.)

SE4 is a different game, so the different method of attack seems acceptable. I'm trying to remember if mines in Starfire can attack ships using ECM3 in cloaking mode. Probably not, but you never know.



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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[AJC]

this problem of strategic mine laying is easily modified in the components file - there are two listing for launching units- strategic and tactical - the second number listed is the strategic launch capablity..

change The Ability 1 Val 2 , to read 1000 and the launching component can launch as many units as required per strategic turn.

I left the limit of 1 unit launched per tactical turn on my Fighter Bay, Satellite Bay and Mine laying components because I agree with the limitation in combat.

example: Fighter bay-

Name := Fighter Bay I
Description := Area on a starship where fighters are stored for launch.
Pic Num := 58
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Tonnage Structure := 30
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Unit Launch
Family := 15
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Fighters
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Launch/Recover Fighters
Ability 1 Descr := Can launch and recover fighters from space. 1 fighter can be launched per combat turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1
Ability 1 Val 2 := 1000
Ability 2 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 2 Descr := Provides 30kT of cargo space.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 30 December 2000).]

[Sinapus]

Ah, so that's how it's done. Haven't taken the time to go into the files and find it.

I'd try to limit that number a bit more. I think what they were trying to change was the advantage human players had over computer players, which was humans would design a minelayer with one mine layer and a bunch of cargo bays. The limit should be something like the number of small mines (or fighters, or satellites) that can be launched by that bay. Or maybe five to ten times that much.



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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[Tomgs]

I changed it a bit differently in my files. I made the amount to be launched equal to the level of the component. So a level 2 mine layer can launch 2 per turn. This is still a bit of a limit but it is possible to live with and just maybe the computer can deal with this small increase better than an larger number. I don't often use mines anyway and I can live with a few satelites launched per turn. Others can set different limits according to their preferances. I usually try to set limits based on level I like the idea that if you invest research points you get some added benifits from the technology. I may increase the cargo size of the components a bit more also because the AI doesn't seem to put any cargo bins on its launcher ships, maybe this will even it out a bit more. I will have to be careful not to increase it too much or I will see transports full of fighter bays and mine layers.

[Baron Munchausen]

You know, I've just played a game of Stars! since I hadn't for a long time. I find the treatment of mines in Stars! to be MUCH more logical. Wouldn't it be great if a minefield in SE IV could be an attribute of a sector, like a storm is? You would just put a mine-layer equipped ship in a sector with the order to lay mines and a "minefield" would appear with the number of mines as an attribute. No screwing around with individual mines. I have to wonder why it was considered too much micro-management to have to build your missiles and carry them, but not considered too much for mines.

Anyway, a minefield in Stars! is just an area where you have a percentage chance to hit (or be hit - depending on your view of how mines work) by a mine. And, minefields DECAY with time as the mines get old and break down. Now there's a cool idea. If this were added to SE, suddenly you wouldn't be able to build mine defenses up to infinity (or the unit limit). You'd have to MAINTAIN your minefields. Either leave a mine layer "on patrol" in the sector or send one back periodically to renew the field.

You would not necessarily be completely destroyed when you hit a mine, either. So, you'd have crippled ships slowing a fleet down, or having to try to get home somehow, or getting slaughtered by a "sentry" fleet posted nearby. All much more realistic -- and interesting -- than guaranteed total annihilation. The percentage chance to hit a mine would have to be different in SE since the navigation grid is much "coarser" than in Stars! but otherwise this would translate quite well, I think. And it would save a lot of overhead on the game to not treat mines as individual units, just as it saves to not treat missiles as individual units. So, drop mines as units and add drones!

[evan42]

Being a long time Stars player, I absolutely agree with Baron Munchausen on the mines. The mines in SE should be changed to a % chance of hitting mines, and the mines should decay over time.

If we get rid of mines as an individual unit, a mine layer can basically lay infinite number of mines (when given order to do it, and it ofc cost resources per turn)
And when the sector is selected, it should show info about the mine field , such as the number of mines, level of mine tech used, and % chance to hit a passing ship.

It will be possible to have 2 mine fields with 2 different level of tech in the same sector. So, when a ship enters, it will be tested to see if the 1st field will hit the ship. Hit, destroyed or not, if the ship survives the 1st field, it will be tested again with the 2nd field.

Perhaps higher minelayer/minelaying tech should increase the % chance to hit ships entering the mine field, and maybe the damage applied would be higher too.

[thorfrog]

Looks like someone else also saw the same problem. Malfador/Shrapnel let me know if this will be in the next fix.

[Seawolf]

Baron,

I don't think that mine automatically destroy a ship. If the mine was weak enough and a larger enough ship passed through the components could absorb the bLast and still have enough left.

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Seawolf on the prowl

[Tomgs]

I had a mine group orbiting one of my frontier planets a fleet attacked the world and I had 4 partially damaged ships attacking after the mines were used up. So unless 3 of the ships were previously damaged (which is a possibility but there were no strange warp points near there) they all took partial damage from the mines. 4 of their ships were destroyed outright and there were no ships undamaged after hitting the minefield. Now when I hit a minefield all the damage seems to concentrate on ships one after another leaving at most one damaged ship. Hopefully this wasn't just an isolated incident and mines damage ships randomly and not just one after another.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 02 January 2001).]

[Todd248]

I think this change was awesome. No more super transports that can lay mines/sat's/fighters. I actually have to think about my mine and sat layers more and balance cargo space vs unit launch capabilities. I've started building dreadnaughts that have 20 lauch bays so that I can launch more units per turn. It's also made those bays actually have a real use beyond give a ship the ability to launch units.

The only problem I have with this change is related to fighters and not being able to transfer cargo from a transport ship carrying fighters to a fighter carrier. It would be nice to do ship to ship transport without the need for a planet to be present.