Albania OOB (55)

[Jaakko]

Okay, this is a minor country OOB but is in the game and should be taken care of like the rest. Besides, it enables some rather exceptional Cold War what-if scenarios (vs. Yugoslavia/NATO/WP/all). So let's get started.

The Albania OOB file seems to lack a lot, especially from the Cold War era, presumably due to the lack of English language information on the subject.

There are several units with Soviet equipment. I find some of them questionable, especially those made available after the open Soviet-Albanian split early 60's (the relations had been deteriorating from late 50's already). Of course, this doesn't mean they're automatically wrong - just questionable. For example:

SPG-9, units 056 and 269 available from 1/75. These are set available several years after Albania had officially left the Warsaw Pact (1968). So who would've supplied this? Edit: And who is supposed to have supplied BRDM-2's (unit 294) in 1975?

ZU-23 (unit 352), available from 1/65. 1965 is after the Sino-Soviet split which started to develope in 1956 and culminated by 1961, but before 1968, so I consider this possible but questionable. Stay or go?

Then a surprising lack: The SKS Carbine or its Albanian copy (produced from 1969 onwards).
This weapon was common in Albania but this doesn't show in the game. Any suggestions how to add it and from what dates? Here some sources:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...2333/index.asp

Here are some addition/change suggestions with information sources:

Change availability of the Type-59 tank (unit 019) to 1966. According to SIPRI, it was ordered in 1965 and delivered from 1966 to 1975.

Type-69 RPG (weapon 015) should be made consistent with the Chinese OOB weapon data: Penetration decreased to 26, although I wonder if it really should be one point less than Type-56?
"Because the Type 56 was unable to penetrate the armour of the new generation Soviet tanks such as the T-62, the PLA desperately needed a new individual anti-tank weapon to replace the aging Type 56."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_69_RPG

"The weapon entered service with the PLA in the mid-1970s"

So I'd make sure Type-69 equipped units aren't available before 1976, although wikipedia could very well be misleading here. What do you think? In the arsenal of this OOB, the availability of this RPG makes a big difference in game play too.

Copy of the China OOB unit 035 Type-62 light tank, to be made available from 1/71
"75 including 35 ordered in 1970 from PRC and delivered in 1971."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_62

YW-531 / Type-63 APC (unit 045) availability changed from 1/69 to 1/73
http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade...e_register.php

Questions:

-Was the WZ-532 APC (unit 046) really delivered to Albania in 1988, considering the Sino-Albanian split of 1978? Same issue might affect other post-78 issued units employing Chinese export equipment, although I really don't know any hard facts. Assuming I searched the SIPRI database correctly, there are no weapon imports from China past 1978.

-Were Chinese copies of the ZPU-2 and ZPU-4 flaks (Type 58 and 56) delivered to Albania? At the moment the OOB only has the ZPU-1(unit 350). Talking of AA guns, what type is this?
http://www.communisme-bolchevisme.ne...s/Shkip_25.jpg
Didn't find anything resembling that in the OOB.

-Did the Albanians have their Type-59 tanks (unit 019 updated in any way at any point? As it is in the game, they remain significantly less effective than the T-55 (017) and T-54 (014 & 015), with less effective ammo, less fire control value and no stabilizer value. This is important due to the relatively significant numbers in which the tank was exported to Albania (721 according to SIPRI).

-Did Albania have RPG-2s or its Chinese copy Type-56 RPG? This is important due to the relative lateness of arrival of the Type-69, before which infantry lacks any serious AT-capability with the absence of RPG-2/Type-56.

[DRG]

I've copied your info to the list and will look into it later in the year

Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Jaakko

[-Did the Albanians have their Type-59 tanks (unit 019 updated in any way at any point? As it is in the game, they remain significantly less effective than the T-55 (017) and T-54 (014 & 015), with less effective ammo, less fire control value and no stabilizer value. This is important due to the relatively significant numbers in which the tank was exported to Albania (721 according to SIPRI).

I will try to check but I would suspect they did not bother.
While stabilization systems of that era had some marginal usefulness it was something you could do without, many western tank designs lacked them well into the 60's and did just fine.
In a third world setting it was probably better not having them, what limited maintenance resources were available would better spent ensuring others more vital systems (engine etc.) were properly cared for.
The only worthile change would be adding a LRF and a digital ballistic computer. I suspect they could have afforded that only recently, if at all.

[Wdll]

Nah, their economy was even worst in the 80-90s. And of course I doubt they had any tanks from mid-late 90's to now, at least operational.
I guess North Korea would have been in a similar place if not for the support by PRC.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Nah, their economy was even worst in the 80-90s. And of course I doubt they had any tanks from mid-late 90's to now, at least operational.
I guess North Korea would have been in a similar place if not for the support by PRC.

I do distinctly remember an italian TV broadcast aired in 1999 focused on the albanian Army during the the Kosovo war. Several Type 59s (or T-54/55 I don't remember exactly) were showed moving around, crews were interviewed etc. It looked somewhat amateurish but the tanks were in working condition, even if probably not exactly in top notch shape. Really, with such a large fleet keeping some T-54/55/59 tanks "operational" isn't that difficult or expensive, you just need a few mechanics and cannibalization.
Apparently 170 of them have been modernized in the 2000's or are being modernized, but so far no details on the package applied.

[Wdll]

Dude, I am willing to bet something that none of them are operational or were from at the latest 1998 onwards.
I don't know what you saw, but if they were real, their engine was probably the only thing working.
Communism and government corruption ****ed up that beautiful country.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Dude, I am willing to bet something that none of them are operational or were from at the latest 1998 onwards.
I don't know what you saw, but if they were real, their engine was probably the only thing working.
Communism and government corruption ****ed up that beautiful country.

If they could keep some T-55s moving and shooting in early 2000's Afghanistan I don't see why they could not manage the same in Albania.
If they could make the engine work doing the same with the gun would not be a problem and for the rest...who cares, in that circumstances, if the NBC system is defunct or one of the two starting systems does not work properly?
We aren't talking about the most complex device ever created by Man.

[Imp]

We aren't talking about the most complex device ever created by Man.

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by Marcello

If they could keep some T-55s moving and shooting in early 2000's Afghanistan I don't see why they could not manage the same in Albania.
If they could make the engine work doing the same with the gun would not be a problem and for the rest...who cares, in that circumstances, if the NBC system is defunct or one of the two starting systems does not work properly?
We aren't talking about the most complex device ever created by Man.

What you might be forgetting is that near the end of the 90's there was chaos for a long time in Albania and everything was stripped and sold. Everything.

As for Afghanistan, Albania was not at war at any point. When you are in need (see war) you do whatever you can to make things work, in some way or the other. When half your population lives in Greece and Italy, when all of the country doesn't have electricity, communications, anything, and at peace, the last thing you want to do is keep ancient tanks operational. For what? Who were they going to fight? Serbs? Greeks? Italians? Their tanks would survive a couple of days at most (if they were operational). and they knew it. Albanians are a smart people.

[Imp]

Have to admit they were in dire straights & parading on TV was probably to give the impresion they had operational tanks. They might have had a handfull that was servicable but doubt much more than that.