US running out of dumb bombs?

[Suhiir]

I spoke to a friend in the US Air Force this weekend and one of his comments caught my attention.

Apparently with the restrictive Rules Of Engagement (ROE) they operate under the USAF has decided to not replace any "dumb" ordnance they do use. Tho cheaper it can't be used due to ROE restrictions so any replacement weapons they acquire are all "smart" types.

Anyone else heard anything like this?
If true perhaps US aircraft in the OOBs should have their weapon loads adjusted...particularly in future units (say 2015+). Hard to drop bombs you don't have anymore.

[thatguy96]

I find this hard to understand. The USAF has completely transitioned away from complete bombs, which started in the late 1950s. The bombs are assembled at airbases before being loaded onto aircraft. The actual explosive element of any of the currently utilized smart bombs could easily be made dumb by assembling it without the "smart" nose and tail sections. With JDAMs the guidance element is contained entirely in the tail section.

So unless we've stopped purchasing the warhead sections, I find it hard to believe that if needed, dumb bombs would be hard to come by. I would imagine the tail sections and nose fuzes (for the really old warheads) aren't being thrown out.

[Suhiir]

That was my understanding too...merely a matter of swapping certain components. But I'm afraid aircraft and air ordinance is not one of my stronger areas of knowledge.

Actually they probably do throw most of them out...storage space. And in the case of fuse assemblies they'd have to be stored securely since they are explosive...easier to destroy/dispose of them.

[Imp]

This is where the game has trouble & guessing for the future is irrelevant. I would guess in MBT most situations played are what ifs & if WW3 did kick off ROE would change, bans on CM arty would go out the window etc.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

This is where the game has trouble & guessing for the future is irrelevant. I would guess in MBT most situations played are what ifs & if WW3 did kick off ROE would change, bans on CM arty would go out the window etc.

In any case - cluster ammo is also used to cover the case of 'smart' warheads as well (SADARM and similar).

Cheers
Andy

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Anyone else heard anything like this?
If true perhaps US aircraft in the OOBs should have their weapon loads adjusted...particularly in future units (say 2015+). Hard to drop bombs you don't have anymore.

From what I remember PGM in the game do not affect terrain, so you cannot use them to drop a bridge, for example. So you would miss a capability.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Marcello

From what I remember PGM in the game do not affect terrain, so you cannot use them to drop a bridge, for example. So you would miss a capability.

Use a plane with a large LGB, then. PGM do affect terrain, but only planes fire PGM. (You may be confusing PGM with cluster munitions?).

Cheers
Andy

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Use a plane with a large LGB, then. PGM do affect terrain, but only planes fire PGM. (You may be confusing PGM with cluster munitions?).
Cheers
Andy

I have checked the issue to see if memory has started to play tricks, but it seems it has not.

I have taken a map with a river and three parallel bridges side by side (so near misses would still hit bridge hexes).
Then I created a test scenario set in the 2000s, USA vs North Korea using said map.
For the US I purchased
1)several FO vehicles
2) three flights composed by two unit. n.146 F-15E Eagle, each armed with two weapon n.213 2000lb Paveway, probably the most powerful guided bomb in the game.
3) For further check, one flight composed by two unit
n. 595 F-22 Raptor, each armed with two 1000 Ib JDAM
weapon n. 207

I then used the american FO to set up an opening bombardment of the central bridge at the start of the scenario, which I then ran for five times.
For five times I sat back watching the USAF hitting those bridges with a dozen of 2000 Ib LGBs and JDAMs. And for five times, after the smoke cleared, the bridges were standing there without a scratch.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Marcello

I have checked the issue to see if memory has started to play tricks, but it seems it has not.

I have taken a map with a river and three parallel bridges side by side (so near misses would still hit bridge hexes).
Then I created a test scenario set in the 2000s, USA vs North Korea using said map.
For the US I purchased
1)several FO vehicles
2) three flights composed by two unit. n.146 F-15E Eagle, each armed with two weapon n.213 2000lb Paveway, probably the most powerful guided bomb in the game.
3) For further check, one flight composed by two unit
n. 595 F-22 Raptor, each armed with two 1000 Ib JDAM
weapon n. 207

I then used the american FO to set up an opening bombardment of the central bridge at the start of the scenario, which I then ran for five times.
For five times I sat back watching the USAF hitting those bridges with a dozen of 2000 Ib LGBs and JDAMs. And for five times, after the smoke cleared, the bridges were standing there without a scratch.

That is because we changed the damage model so that shell holes, dropped buildings etc are no longer guaranteed, especially for smaller WH sizes. (In the old model, a 1000lb bomb hit or 8in shell (?) hit was absolutely guaranteed to drop a stone bridge). (Game Guide -> Release History -> WinSPMBT version 5.0 Upgrade patch -> bullet No. 18).

So arty bombardments now cause less of a "lunar landscape" effect (craters on the ground or smashed up towns) unless you pound the ground for several turns with 122mm+ shells.

Same goes for bridges - unless it gets a "cratering" effect, the bomb (or shell) will be doing no structural damage to the bridge terrain. Bridges are tough targets (normally needing a day or so of engineer preparation to prepare a demolition) and you will have to work at dropping them now - multiple hits will likely be needed, unless the bomb rolls a good die roll. No more instant elimination of the bridge hex and the 10 tanks the AI has parked on it now !

AFAIR - the demolition unit class (if large enough warhead), if set on a bridge hex, is reasonably reliable as a bridge demolition method.

Cheers
Andy

[Imp]

IEDs or fougasse cant rember which think IED seem to have a good chance if I remember takes 2 on average to drop a stone bridge but no guarantee. Sounds about right they are very hard to destroy & even engineers muck it up