Tigers vs Shermans

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

That said, many of the tank designs from Japan, Italy, Poland and France were designed less with tank combat in mind, being armed with lower velocity guns.

Well, as for Poland, the only produced tank (not counting tankettes) received a state-of-art AT 37mm Bofors. Other designs also were to be armed with newer AT guns. Even the tankettes started to be fitted with 20 mm gun before the war.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Well, as for Poland, the only produced tank (not counting tankettes) received a state-of-art AT 37mm Bofors. Other designs also were to be armed with newer AT guns. Even the tankettes started to be fitted with 20 mm gun before the war.

I would say that by 1939 pretty much all major countries (and many smaller ones) had realized that a tank should be able to destroy other tanks, except possibly Japan. For Japanese the Khalkhyn Gol battles seem to have been the wakeup call (in many ways actually, but that's outside the scope of this discussion).

Some countries, most notably France had large numbers of tanks designed in the early and mid-1930, which did not have high velocity guns, but at least the French did their best to upgrade those with new AP ammunition. Plans called for upgrading the guns as well, but they run out of time.

As for Italy; they managed to field only one new tank design* by June 1940 (the M11/39), which in fact did have a sort of high velocity gun (actually more like medium velocity), even if it was very poorly placed in the vehicle. They also realized that the design was obsolescent and production was switched to the more modern M13/40 as soon as possible.

* The previous Italian tank design (not including tankettes) was the FIAT 3000B (later L5/30), which was and upgraded FIAT 3000 (L5/21) designed in 1929. The FIAT 3000 in turn was originally an upgraded FT-17. Some FIAT 3000B tanks were in fact armed with the 37mm L/40 Vickers-Terni gun (as in the M11/39), although the main motivation at that stage seems to have been destroying enemy strong points like machine gun nests and the like. Nevertheless, AP ammunition existed for that gun from the beginning.

[Imp]

Said I wouldn't comment again but your actually pretty much verifying what I said.

The Tiger was the first tank designed with tank combat in mind as a primary role.

As you stated sure other people realised this & upgraded models to do so.

The key word is upgraded they were not designed that way from the start.

Not going to look it up but the Tigers design brief was from around 1937 if I remember right because the Germans saw the need for it.

Because they were ahead of the game is why the Tiger has been I would say the only tank in history that truly had nothing to touch it for a year or two after its delivery.

[DRG]

.. and yet the first ones the British met weres taken out by 57mm ATG's in the first engagement

[gila]

As the old sherman tanker says:if they see you first you are dead,if you see them first you are still dead.

[gila]

Not saying Tigers are invunerable.
Once did a trial a single Tiger against a platoon of M5A1's(hill terrian) with success but heavily damaged.
The major problems in Tigers were the steering,fuel,breakdowns, poor crew training and the allied air supremacity at that time.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by Imp

The Tiger was the first tank designed with tank combat in mind as a primary role.

As you stated sure other people realised this & upgraded models to do so.

The key word is upgraded they were not designed that way from the start.

Not going to look it up but the Tigers design brief was from around 1937 if I remember right because the Germans saw the need for it.

The fundamental problem with this argument is that the Tiger was not designed specifically to fight other tanks

If you look at the earliest speculations on the subject of a heavy tank back in 1935, development of a medium velocity 75mm gun for it was actually dropped because the Wehrmacht didn't want that. Instead, the heavy tank project developed as a breakthrough tank (Durchbruchwagen) in the 30-ton class. In 1937 the project envisioned a 30-ton tank armed with the 7,5cm KwK 37 L/24, i.e. the same gun as the Panzer IV.
As it developed into the VK 30.01 Panzerkampfwagen VI in 1940, it retained the 7,5cm L/24 gun. A more powerfull weapon was not considered for this design until October 1941, after the Soviets had exposed the inferiority of German tank and anti-tank weaponry. At that point they were looking at a 7,5cm L/34,5 experimental weapon, the 5cm L/42 and L/60 or a taper-bore 75mm gun. Even the 7,5cm L/43 that were being designed for the Panzer IV was considered in late 1941.

In 1940-41 a 105mm low-velocity gun was considered as well.

The 8,8cm L/56 gun did not emerge in speculations until early 1941 when Krupp offered a turret with that weapon for Porsche, who was working on their experimental heavy tank in the 30-ton class. By the summer of 1941 Porsches design had grown into a 45-ton tank project in competetion with Henschels proposal in the same weight class, also to mount the 8,8cm gun.

So the Tiger was not inititally intended as an anti-tank weapon, but as vehicle for breaking into and through strong enemy defenses. Hence its thick armour and a gun focused on delivering a good HE round.
I think it can be argued, that the change in armament by 1941 was due to a need of combining HE firepower with a solid anti-tank capability. That is, exactly the same development towards a dual-purpose gun that happened for other German tanks in this period:

- Introduction of 20mm and 37mm HE for tanks in 1940 after the fighting in Poland
- 50mm guns with HE for the Panzer III in 1940
- A new dual-purpose 75mm gun for the Panzer IV and StuG in 1941

If you look at the tactical manuals for the Tiger company in the spring of 1943, they still mention four different main jobs for the Tiger

- Attack in the first line against strong enemy defenses
- Destruction at long range of heavy enemy tanks and other armoured targets
- Continued attack against the enemy defenses
- Achieving breakthrough against fortified enemy positions

It is emphasized, though, that if enemy tanks present themselves, they become the main objective of the Tiger. But this is 1943 - not 1937