Can someone explain the new hills please

[Weasel]

Playing some MBT and had my grunts behind what I thought was a ridge line, but my opponent was able to engage this 3 hexes away. I know in the old versions he would have had to be in the hex next to them but not now. I read the manual, didn't understand, quoted it and sent it to my opponent and he didn't understand it either.

I read this:

Terrain, hills and LOS
Each level of hill in the game is broken down into 10 units. Ground level terrain that is "5" high is midway to being a level 1 hill. Level 1 terrain that reports as being "15" high is midway to being a level 2 hill etc, etc to the top level ( level 15 )

The game does not block LOS behind a "bump" in the map until it gets to be 4 higher than the base height for that level ( ground level would be 4, level 1 would be 14, level 2 would be 24 etc etc. ). It will allow you to see over and behind any "bump" 3 and under so any terrain 3 and under above the level you are on will offer neither cover nor concealment.

For example.....

If a unit is at zero height directly behind a 4 high "bump" that is three hexes long , LOS will be blocked for 2 hexes behind the bump. If that 4 high bump is 4 hexes long, LOS will be blocked completely right across the map. If the bump is 5 high even one hex will totally block LOS.

but I don't understand. My infantry was in a hex 5/1/(6) and the enemy was 3 hexes away in a hex 10/1/(11) but looking at the map it looks like flat terrain so it would appear that the rounds are flying straight and then following the terrain over the ridge.

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by Weasel

My infantry was in a hex 5/1/(6) and the enemy was 3 hexes away in a hex 10/1/(11) but looking at the map it looks like flat terrain so it would appear that the rounds are flying straight and then following the terrain over the ridge.

You dont give details of what terrain heights are between the 2 units - but why are you surprised a unit higher (enemy at 10) could fire on your infantry (5)?

Ground heights are given in units each 10 of which are considered a hill contour ( a hex at ht 27 is higher than one at 23 although both show on the map as a level 2 hill).

a "bump" in the ground has to be at least 4 units high to block LOS. How far beyond the "bump" you are hidden/"in the shadow" of the hill depends on the depth of the hill as stated in the third paragraph you quoted.

The terrain between your enemy and yourself would have to be 4, or more, units higher to provide cover.

[Weasel]

all of the hexes are 10/1/(11) so he did indeed fire, the round followed the flat ground and then sloped downwards following the ridge line as I thought. When I check LOS from my unit I can only see a single hex, the one in front of him, but the enemy three hexes away can see 3 hexes? The old saying "if I can see you then you can see me" should hold true here.

I don't think this feature adds anything to the game but complication.

[shahadi]

Think of the problem as in geometry, then maybe scorpio_rocks explanation will become clear. One height is 10 and the other height is 5 and the distance between the two heights is 2 hex. Draw a line from the 10 height to the top of the 5 height. Extend the line to the imaginary ground. Now, move the 10 height hill back say 5 hex or 250 meters. Note, the angle or slope of the hypotenuse is now at an more open angle than when the 10 height hill was closer say only 3 hex from the 5 hill.

The guys on the top of the 10 height hill can see you or maybe the top of your guys heads at only 3 hex distance. But at 5 hex their LOS is flatter and they can not see your guys.

A picture is truly worth a thousand words.

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[Weasel]

Still too complicated and not worth the headache for a game IMO, but that is just me. I liked it the old way, your guys are beside a ridge line so you know only the hex beside him has LOS or a hill that is two higher than the interval terrain.

[DRG]

Well, you can tell yourself there was an "old way" and "new way" but I'll tell you the ONLY thing that's changed is we expanded the information displayed when you pass the mouse cursor over a hex for the CD version of the game. Previously, the only information about a hex was Height and the terrain types in it. The new display includes ground height, obstacle height , total height and Terrain Density . That quote you gave was an explanation of how things works NOT how we changed them because we didn't change anything just what's reported and that is further explained in the WinSPMBT version 7.0 Upgrade patch write up

There have ALWAYS been the occasional LOS oddities in the game.......it comes from using a hex based system to figure LOS

[Weasel]

The simple fact is I use to know that if I was behind a ridge line the only LOS was the hex beside me. The terrain, as stated, is my ridge at 5, and then three hexes at 10 or im simple terms for some of you..A FLAT AREA. The rounds travelled 3 hexes flat trajectory and then dropped downward. Anyway, done here, always get such warm wonderful help here from the moderators, just great guys willing to help out and answer a question about the PEFECT game they think SP is. Thanks for taking the time! Glad I don't run my SP board like this!!!

[DRG]

Originally Posted by shahadi

A picture is truly worth a thousand words.

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And a save game is worth even more but one wasn't offered

[DRG]

Does ANYONE ELSE think we've changed the LOS code ? I'm just curious.

That explanation quoted from the GG was a explanation of HOW THE CODE WORKS based on tests I ran after setting up the game to display the additional information. Until that additional info was displayed AND we allowed that additional data to be edited into a map using the *, < and > hotkeys that allowed us to run tests to see where the game started blocking LOS and what effect that had for units in the game which lead to the write up mentioned above but we didn't change anything in the code but the additional information did give us better info on the effects of terrain density and obstacle height on the game which allowed us to explain how it all fit together but, as I have said before, there will always be slight anomalies in LOS due to the fact we are locked into a hex based system which works well enough in 99% of cases

Don

[Mobhack]

As Don says - no changes whatsoever were made to the core sighting code. Only to the detail reported on the info line.

Have you considered that your opponent might have had a decent vision rating - since troops with vision gear can see a bit further into smoke and dust, foliage, buildings etc as well. Especially units with thermal sights. Therefore though you could not see him, he may well have had no problems seeing you.

Or, you checked visibility to the enemy unit in your turn when there was some micro-smoke there (only smoke of a certain value or higher shows as smoke animations - micro smoke does not, but it can affect visibility especially in edge conditions) - and that had then cleared in the end turn phase. Or there was a smoke animation - but you had smoke off, or were relying on it sticking about - smoke can dissipate or in some circumstances, spread (usually from fires and wrecks). There have been plenty of times on a battlefield where I had thought my Sherman safe where it was parked (checked vision) - but in the enemy turn, the tiger slotted it due to smoke reduction, with the surviving crew being well able to see it (assuming it remained in the same hex!)...