PzGren Units

[chris h]

In the German OOB you have PzGren unit available from 1939. Why is this when the earlist KstN lisitng I can find for PzGren Co is a provisional date Apr 43, the earliest official date being Nov 43. Prior to that they where called Schutzen (mot or gp) Co.

There were some PzGren Bn in existance mid 42 but they still used the Schutzen KstN. Just to confuse the issue, when assigned to PzG Bn these Sch Co were unofficially often referred to as PzGren Co.

[DRG]

They are infantry in armoured carriers. That is the way they are known in this game since the very beginning so I guess we went with the "unofficial" PzGren usage that everyone has understood for 2+ decades and we are NOT going to build new formations and rewrite game picklist code just to have Schutzen early on then PzGren mid 1943

[troopie]

I had understood that there was to be no more adjustments to the Orbats in SPWW2. Besides there are only 4 open spots in the German orbat. But make your own mod if you wish.

troopie

[DRG]

There will not be any further major adjustments. Changing code to allow the AI to buy formations that do all the same things as the old one just under a different formation name is not going to happen.

[chris h]

Originally Posted by DRG

They are infantry in armoured carriers. That is the way they are known in this game since the very beginning so I guess we went with the "unofficial" PzGren usage that everyone has understood for 2+ decades and we are NOT going to build new formations and rewrite game picklist code just to have Schutzen early on then PzGren mid 1943

I suspected it was historical in game terms. Just re-naming the early PzGren as Schtzen would make the orbats look better but then, the hard work would begin updating all exising scenarios/campaigns etc.

[DRG]

"Just" re-naming the early PzGren as Schtzen

Really " Just"? You've obviously never done any serious work on an OOB so that it all works not only in the game but also with the picklists the AI uses ( but that is obvious as I am the only one that has to make that all work together )

re-naming the early PzGren as Schtzen what? Units? Formations ?? The units are not dated in a way that would not leave some renamed early and others too late to fit nicely into the new formations and to make it even more interesting there are two unitclasses that make up the units a PzGren formation and the units in each UC do not generally match the start and end dates to fit whatever dividing line created between Schtzen and PzGren and since the changeover date between the two titles is ambiguous it's inevitable that someone, someplace will dig up a book that says whatever date you picked is wrong



So the multitude of units that make up PzGren formations

Searching for Units of class 69 Mechanised Infantry
290 - PzGren Grp - Available 05/044 to 12/046
291 - PzGren Grp - Available 01/044 to 12/046
292 - PzGren Grp - Available 04/043 to 12/043
293 - PzGren Grp - Available 11/043 to 12/046
294 - PzGren Grp - Available 03/044 to 12/046
295 - PzGren Grp - Available 06/038 to 03/042
498 - PzGren Grp - Available 06/034 to 05/038
550 - PzGren Grp - Available 10/038 to 12/043
688 - PzGren Grp - Available 06/034 to 12/038
689 - PzGren Grp - Available 09/043 to 09/044
690 - PzGren Grp - Available 01/044 to 12/046
691 - PzGren Grp - Available 09/044 to 12/045
692 - PzGren Grp - Available 02/043 to 12/046
693 - PzGren Grp - Available 11/043 to 12/046
795 - PzGren Grp - Available 06/041 to 02/042
796 - PzGren Grp - Available 03/042 to 12/043
797 - PzGren Grp - Available 09/043 to 09/044
798 - PzGren Grp - Available 01/044 to 12/046
799 - PzGren Grp - Available 09/044 to 12/045
800 - PzGren Grp - Available 02/045 to 12/046
801 - PzGren Grp - Available 08/043 to 12/046

+++
19 formations found using UC 69
332 PzGrenZug (mot) - Available: 06/34-12/46
333 PzGren Kp (mot) - Available: 06/34-08/43
334 PzGren Kp (mot) - Available: 09/43-12/46
351 PzGrenZug (gep) - Available: 07/44-12/46
352 PzGrenZug (gep) - Available: 06/39-03/40
353 PzGrenZug+(gep) - Available: 04/40-12/46
354 PzGrenZug*(gep) - Available: 11/43-12/46
355 PzGrZug gep (a) - Available: 06/39-12/46
356 PzGren Kp (gep) - Available: 06/39-03/40
357 PzGren Kp (gep) - Available: 04/40-12/46
358 PzGren Kp*(gep) - Available: 11/43-12/46
359 PzGrKp gep (a) - Available: 06/39-12/46
360 PzGren Kp*(gep) - Available: 07/44-12/46
362 PzGrZg (gep) SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
363 PzGrZg (gep)*SS - Available: 11/43-12/46
364 PzGrZg gep(a)SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
365 PzGrKp (gep) SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
366 PzGrKp (gep)*SS - Available: 11/43-12/46
367 PzGrKp gep(a)SS - Available: 11/42-12/46

============================================

Searching for Units of class 70 Heavy Mech Infantry
287 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 05/042 to 12/043
288 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 11/043 to 12/046
289 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 11/041 to 06/044
296 - PzGren StG Grp - Available 01/044 to 12/046
345 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 06/034 to 10/039
549 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 01/038 to 12/043
684 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 01/044 to 12/046
685 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 07/043 to 08/044
686 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 08/044 to 12/045
687 - PzGren SMG Grp - Available 01/045 to 12/046
+++
30 formations found using UC 70
332 PzGrenZug (mot) - Available: 06/34-12/46
333 PzGren Kp (mot) - Available: 06/34-08/43
334 PzGren Kp (mot) - Available: 09/43-12/46
335 PzGr s Kp (mot) - Available: 01/38-01/41
336 PzGr s Kp (mot) - Available: 02/41-05/41
337 PzGr s Kp (mot) - Available: 06/41-08/43
338 PzGr s Kp (mot) - Available: 09/43-07/44
339 PzGr s Kp (mot) - Available: 08/44-12/46
351 PzGrenZug (gep) - Available: 07/44-12/46
352 PzGrenZug (gep) - Available: 06/39-03/40
353 PzGrenZug+(gep) - Available: 04/40-12/46
354 PzGrenZug*(gep) - Available: 11/43-12/46
355 PzGrZug gep (a) - Available: 06/39-12/46
356 PzGren Kp (gep) - Available: 06/39-03/40
357 PzGren Kp (gep) - Available: 04/40-12/46
358 PzGren Kp*(gep) - Available: 11/43-12/46
359 PzGrKp gep (a) - Available: 06/39-12/46
360 PzGren Kp*(gep) - Available: 07/44-12/46
362 PzGrZg (gep) SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
363 PzGrZg (gep)*SS - Available: 11/43-12/46
364 PzGrZg gep(a)SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
365 PzGrKp (gep) SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
366 PzGrKp (gep)*SS - Available: 11/43-12/46
367 PzGrKp gep(a)SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
370 PzGrenZug (Ust) - Available: 01/41-12/46
371 PzGrenBtr(sGrW) - Available: 01/41-12/46
372 PzGrenKp (sw) - Available: 01/41-12/46
373 PzGrZug Ust SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
374 PzGrBtr sGrW SS - Available: 11/42-12/46
375 PzGrKp (sw) SS - Available: 11/42-12/46

........And then there are the SS PzGren formations.......they start 11/42


Do not fit nicely into any cut off date between PzGren as Schtzen and it's ALL a waste of time anyway since all that work required would only be to change a unit/formation title.

The only place this might happen is in your personal OOB's.

Have fun.....

[chris h]

Just been tinkering and yes!, just realised that.

[chris h]

Been tinkering some more and came across this in the MobHack guide.

'It is normal as well to use the first unit of a particular class as the template, and to lay out your OOB units of a class in a linear date oriented fashion. This is because when the code starts a pick, it will start its search from the unit you specifies offset in the OOB, and then move forwards testing each such unit it finds, as and until it actually finds one it likes and stops there. If the pick code reaches the end of the OOB file - it does not always loop round and go from the OOB start to the initial pick position. It tends to like the unit you use as the template, if it is in period at the pick, but units before the one you point at in the OOB will tend to be picked less often as it is not guaranteed to loop around on reaching OOB end. Intelligent picking of the correct unit as a template can have a drastic effect on the AI force buy, as can say, jumbling units up by date - if say you have your OOB laid out - most early tanks, then late war tanks then the in betweenies and use most early tank as the template - because the AI pick code tends to move on, when the late war tank is current, it will often whiz by it, and pick some other intermediate dated tank from the in betweeny dates that is still current. For most OOBS - lay units of a class out in increasing date (and perhaps cost) order in the OOB'

Looking just at the lists posted in this thread they are nowhere near in the chronological order suggested so the posiblities of this happening are likely. Say some idiot, like me, comes along and corrects them according to the rules here then every existing scenario/campaign is likely to be well and truely screwed, especially if you try and keep them number altogether.

Am I correct in this thinking, if so how critical is the above as it seems to work OK as it is.

[chris h]

I ran the formation date check and these came up. There were some gap problem and the before ERROR are easy to fix. What about the rest, just information or important?

Reading the guide it says '... end of the company time frame - by ensuring that the part time platoons are at the end of the list, and in last start date order.'

These are all companies so the platoon issue is not a problem.

Checking gaps in formations

Formation 246 GebJaeger Zug - Slot 5 Mtn Infantry-AT not available at date 1\1930

============ checking formations =========

225 - PzAufklKp (sw) - Sub Formation Slot 5 => 227 PzAufklZug(Ust) Finishes Before Company End Date
261 - FJg Kompanie - Sub Formation Slot 6 => 117 FJg PzBuechse Starts after Company Start Date
262 - FJg Kompanie + - Sub Formation Slot 8 => 117 FJg PzBuechse Starts after Company Start Date
263 - FJg MG Kp - Sub Formation Slot 6 => 117 FJg PzBuechse Starts after Company Start Date
267 - FJg Kom [A] - Sub Formation Slot 5 => 117 FJg PzBuechse Starts after Company Start Date
273 - FJg Support [A] - Sub Formation Slot 8 => 272 FJg Inf AT [A] Starts after Company Start Date
357 - PzGren Kp (gep) - Sub Formation Slot 4 => 173 SdKfz (Kan) Grp Finishes Before Company End Date
357 - PzGren Kp (gep) - Sub Formation Slot 5 => 181 SdKfz (Kan) Grp Starts after Company Start Date
589 - FJgPzGrKp (gep) - Sub Formation Slot 7 => 173 SdKfz (Kan) Grp Ends BEFORE Company START Date - ERROR!
589 - FJgPzGrKp (gep) - Sub Formation Slot 7 => 173 SdKfz (Kan) Grp Finishes Before Company End Date

============ companies containing companies check =========

============ run complete =========

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by chris h

Been tinkering some more and came across this in the MobHack guide.

'It is normal as well to use the first unit of a particular class as the template, and to lay out your OOB units of a class in a linear date oriented fashion. This is because when the code starts a pick, it will start its search from the unit you specifies offset in the OOB, and then move forwards testing each such unit it finds, as and until it actually finds one it likes and stops there. If the pick code reaches the end of the OOB file - it does not always loop round and go from the OOB start to the initial pick position. It tends to like the unit you use as the template, if it is in period at the pick, but units before the one you point at in the OOB will tend to be picked less often as it is not guaranteed to loop around on reaching OOB end. Intelligent picking of the correct unit as a template can have a drastic effect on the AI force buy, as can say, jumbling units up by date - if say you have your OOB laid out - most early tanks, then late war tanks then the in betweenies and use most early tank as the template - because the AI pick code tends to move on, when the late war tank is current, it will often whiz by it, and pick some other intermediate dated tank from the in betweeny dates that is still current. For most OOBS - lay units of a class out in increasing date (and perhaps cost) order in the OOB'

Looking just at the lists posted in this thread they are nowhere near in the chronological order suggested so the posiblities of this happening are likely. Say some idiot, like me, comes along and corrects them according to the rules here then every existing scenario/campaign is likely to be well and truely screwed, especially if you try and keep them number altogether.

Am I correct in this thinking, if so how critical is the above as it seems to work OK as it is.

It works with the mess the OOB is in - but since its not totally chronological, some units will be too "popular" if the picker code decides not to loop round at the end. i.e. the ones appearing last on the OOB. (radio codes can also affect coice as well - radio code is "popularity").

The units should all be laid out in chronological order, but over the decades it gets mixed up. It works fine, just that it may result in stuff not showing up much in AI picks. Its only really of any concern to those with OCD, really.