Italian AS-42 Saharina

[Kiwikkiwik]

When I was looking at AT rifles I noticed that the Italian AS-42 jeep known as the Sahariane armed with a Solothurn AT rifle was missing in the game. I had a look at the AS-42 vehicles units 478-483 and their formations and turned up some discrepancies.
Firstly the CA(AA) version has weapon 147 20mm Mod. 35/39 and the CC(AT) version has weapon 5 Breda CM 20L65. The AT version of the vehicle actually had the Solothurn S18/1000AT rifle mounted as the main weapon, weapon 141, The 2omm Breda was always in the AA mount. As I pointed out in the thread about AT rifles I think AT rifles in general and this one specifically are underrated in the game. With the game specs for this weapon it doesn't really make sense to mount it in a vehicle, but the Italians certainly did. MG versions 480 and 482 should probably have a crew of 6. And of course the Solothurn AT rifle is semi-automatic and fires HE as well as AP.

The vehicles are available in formation 237 AS Ricognitori but always as 4 of the same type. This would be better as something like 2 AR, 2 AA, 2 MG, 1 AT or maybe 1 AR, 1 AA, 2 MG, 1 AT as types were mixed to give an all arms formation, the 47mm being the rarest type. The number in a group is also variable, So few actually saw service that they used whatever combination of types were available.
Formation 238 AS Sahariane has a few problems, As far as I can make out this formation was only ever equipped with AS_42s. The Sahariane were specifically designed for long range raiding No other Italian vehicles have anywhere near the range to accompany them. The other vehicles in the formation had ranges less than half that of Saharines and if they put the extra 24 jerry cans to get somewhere near the Saharianes range they'd have no space for crew and probably be overloaded. Some of the actual units in formation AS Saharianes pick list are a bit iffy as well.
Unit 484 TL-37 AS-20 appears as a SP-AT vehicle. There was exactly one of these, a prototype, yes it did go to North Africa in summer of 41 but was lost/captured in december 41, in game the unit has a end date of 12/46, should probably appear in Misc rather than in the AS Sahariane picklist.
Unit 488 TL-37 AS-47 appears as a Gun APC there is one picture of this configuration and its in company with Germans and is a battlefield conversion. Besides there being no evidence of the Italians having used this vehicle It is unlikely because the armoured TL-37s troop carriers it is based on were found unsatisfactory and only used on antipartisan duties in Yugoslavia, not as troop carriers in North Africa in conjunction with AS-42s.
Unit 486 TL-37S with two 8mm AAMG appears as the light SPAA vehicle. Can't find any evidence for this vehicles existence. Normally TL-37S comes with a single MG mounted on a pintle, not a rotating AA mount.
There is a picture of a TL-37 Protetto flamethrowing but this might be just a picture of a portable flamethrower being fired over the edge.
The Armoured TL-37 S "protetto" troop carrier were authorised for production in february 42. The games start date for some of these vehicles of 10/42 sounds about right. But unit 484 TL-37 AS-20 can't be available in 5/40, unit 62 AS-37 Protetto cant be available in 1/37 and unit 63 Autoprotetto 37 cant be available in 6/41 Also these vehicles had a crew of 1, there is only the one seat at the front and no vision devices on the cab off side anyway. There are two 4 person benches in the back, so can carry 8, game has 9. See
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/i...tetto_S-37.php
So units carried should be 8 men and carry capacity should be 8 not 9.
Unit 483 AS-42 CC-47 is missing its HE ammunition for the main gun. As are units 91, 378 and 379.
Formation AS Sahariane should very likely just consist of AS_42s.

Italian Armoured & reconnaissance cars 1911-45 by Fillipo Caprellano gives the breakdown of a Sahara company from Sept 42 before the AS-42 comes into service, it was the Pattuglia Vigilanza Terrestre A vanzata and consisted of
143 troops (133 of them Libyans), a rifle plt, MG plt, 20mm AA plt, 47/32 plt, 14 AS-37 and 20 lancia gun carrying trucks. The 20mm and 47mm guns would be carried portee on the lancias but used dismounted. I think this would be an interesting formation to add to the game.

The AS-42s were crewed by Arditi. These AS-42 driving Arditi units were formed in May 1942 after the Italians met with and decided to form their own version of Britain's LRDG. There is some information here.
https://www.quora.com/Were-the-Itali...y-took-part-in
It seems the term Arditi was used a few times for different formations most notably for Italian WWI stormtroopers who bear no resemblence to WWII Arditi. The game has 7 Arditi units, 549-555, start dates are either 1930 or 1938 I can't find any evidence for game type WWII Arditi existing pre may 42 but it is possible I guess. I would use May 42 as the start date for Arditi units as they appear in the game, and remove pre 42 Arditi or at least give them different equipment, perhaps just carbines, pistols, daggers (yes only joking) and hand grenades, and a very healthy melee bonus. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arditi
Each post-may 1942 Arditi Battalion had a parachute company, a swimming company and a jeep(AS-42) company. It might be interesting to add the paras and swimmers into the game as well but I don't know what equipment they had.

The Arditi crewed AS-42s get exp bonus 6 morale bonus 9. The leg Arditi units already in the game get exp bonus of 15 and morale bonus of 15, perhaps Morale and Experience should be the same values for leg and jeep Arditis? Once AS-42 arrived in Italy they were sometimes crewed by other Italian units. See
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/i..._Sahariana.php

Missing in the TL-37 family is the AS 43 (20mm and coaxial breda 8mm) at least 90 were built
Speed 68 klm/hr
Crew 3
Turret front armour 2 rest 1
Ammo 10 'boxes'? Ammunition was in 8 or 12 round strips or 24 round magazines. From the reference I think "cassette caricatori" translates as magazines so if that's right then 240 rounds. Or they might be 10 boxes of 3 8 round strips each for 240 also.
According to
https://en.topwar.ru/81211-broneavto...3-italiya.html
Start production date for the AS 43 is April 44
Here are the details for the AS 43
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...-viberti-as43/

Using the Autoblinda 41 as a benchmark with 456 shells this vehicle receives 66 bursts of fire, this means it is firing very close to 7 round bursts, Panzer II Luches also gets 66 bursts but with only 330 shells is firing 5 round bursts. As I mentioned in another thread, bursts is OK for HE but for AP single shots are used because you need to see fall of shot before you fire again. So maybe change the 33 AP bursts to about 231 AP shots for Autoblinda 41 and from 15 AP bursts to about 100 AP shots for the AS-42s. Also 507 and 508 L6 L 6/40 Ricerca could change from 21 AP bursts to about 140 AP shots. Ricera has either 280 (early) or 312 (late) shells so firing 6 to 7 round bursts at the moment.
Here is footage of the Breda 35 AA firing single shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj9X3r4HoZU
At about 1:42 minutes into this video the Breda 35 fires a short burst and then two single shots. At a ROF of 200-240rpm it would be easy to get single shots even if the gun had no semiautomatic funtion at all. Which it likely did.
In this video the gun seems to fire a 5 round, 4 round and 4 round burst. Even though this is a re-enactment, looking at the amount of movement in the mount a long 7 round burst probably would be well off target by the 7th round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Te06YWuMDw
53 minutes into this video it fires a 4 round burst and that is at an aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPeGLox-JYQ
I think that 5 round bursts or even 3 round bursts would be better than 7 round bursts for the Italian 20mm Mod. 35/39 and the Breda CM 20L65 when firing HE in the ground role. Simply because the operator would know the rounds are off target after 3 or so rounds are fired.

The European version of the AS-42, the Metropolitana had the top two rows of jerrycans replaced by boxes for extra ammunition etc. So Metropolitana probably then got the full AB 41 loadout of 456 rounds. Apparently the Metropolitana served in Sicily onwards with the Italian Socialist Republic. There are photos of it serving in Rome in sept 43. Not a difficult conversion to make.
Apparently AS-42 used the engine compartment unchanged from the AB-41 ie Armoured. So maybe a rear hull and turret of 1 is appropriate.

Unit 11 Autocannone 20 has a picture of a AS-42 but it's something else, you might want to change the picture.