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  #21  
Old January 14th, 2001, 02:47 AM

Grognard Grognard is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Everyone is being much too nice.

In my first and only game, permanently suspended due to lack of interest, the playing field was a large galaxy, maximum # of AI's, medium AI bonus, hardest AI difficulty level.

I lost approximately 25 ships, mostly due to minefields and the black-hole automatic-pathing bug. At least 800 enemy ships were destroyed.

Why the disparity? I only ran into two fleets, 24 and 13 ships each. So all the other ships were travelling alone, unprotected in a warzone. This number includes probably 200 colony ships.

What are the AI's thinking? Not much, evidently.

The two fleets I did meet had seriously fatal deficiencies in fleet composition and individual ship design.

The 24 ship fleet had 14 aircraft carriers, but only a handful of fighters. No casualties on my part.

The 13 ship fleet had six dreadoughts and seven aircraft carriers. Again, the carriers contained very few aircraft. The design flaw was in weaponry. All enemy airplanes and dreadnaughts carried anti-ship missiles. Only six point-defense weapons amongst the lot to fight my 250 fighters. My losses totalled three fighters.

In conclusion, SE4 is a multiplayer-only game with zero AI opponents. The AI does not provide a credible opponent. Nice to know the AI is not considered a high ranking issue.

Will check back in three months,
Grognard
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  #22  
Old January 14th, 2001, 02:49 AM
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Jubala Jubala is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Give the AI a memory. It doesn't remember where or why it loses ships so it just sends more to be lost. Goes for minefields, black holes, heavily defended warp points and so on. "Danger type X, don't go there unless have strength type A and/or B and/or C".

Also like I said in another thread (Compiled....), make the AI keep track of how many planets it can colonize in safe areas and stop building colony ships once there are no more safe areas or it needs one to establish a bridgehead, but it has to be safe to get in there to do it. ie, don't build colonyships and send them into enemy held territory to colonize planets it should bloddy well know it can't reach due to minefields, enemy fleets, whatever.

Also teach it proper warp point defense. A ****load of sats and mines backed up by heavily armed bases. Especially the neutrals should learn how to this. Fighterbases as well maybe if the race is heavy on using fighters.

Again memory. It should decide on a longterm goal (take system X for example) and keep swinging at you until it completes it or realises it can't and reevalutes it's options. Go on the defensive and build up to take system X maybe. As it behaves now it just seems to decide from turn to turn what to do which means that kickass fleet that just busted through my defenses just turns around and leaves although it could have gone a systemwide rampage virtually unopposed. Or parked on the next warppoint into my space while a smaller fleet invades all my planets, which brings up another point. Teach it to use troops! Even with mods to give it troop tech at game start and build them and their transports I have never seen the AI invade. It should invade more to get already developed planets and population that breathes other atmospheres and it should learn how to properly use that population.

And peace. Maybe a new treaty below trade agreement, not sure, but the AI needs to sue for peace if it feels it is necesary or it has achieved it's goal. Or cease fire. That would have to be a new treaty. Not sure how it would work though.

And as others have said, it is damn annoying to have your allies colonize in your backyard. I don't want that. They should request persmission first and if denied they should stay the hell away. And depending on demeanor and personality rejection/acceptance should anger it differently, but it shouldn't be too upset if you deny it. And if I tell them to beat it and they don't I should be able to drive them away by force, thus risking their anger of course. Reperations could be made of course, but maybe they won't accept it.

And make it use all excess resources. The AI wastes tonnes of resources each year because it can't store it. Build units instead.

Also fix whatever it is that makes the AI not build stuff for several turns sometimes.

And improve how it chooses how to use it's planets. Too often I see low% planets used to generate that resource and high% planets used for another resource (it doesn't have) or for research/intel. And maybe reevaluate down the line. At least when it comes to facilities later in the research tree. Whan I decide how to use a planet the values are the deciding factors. High in minerals it's a mining colony, high in organics it's a farming colony and so on. Low in all it's research or intel. Size matters too. Huge breathable with say high organic is a farming colony, but maybe not completely depending on how much organics I need. I know, hard to get the AI to do but it has to be possible to make it perform better than now.

Why is the AI so fond of only building the biggest baddest ships around? Once it can build a bigger ship it never builds a smaller one. Small ships have their uses too.

Balanced fleets. Works together with "why only big ships?". The AI needs to put together balanced fleets with at least two attack ship types (beam and missile or missile and boarder or beam and rammer and so on), carriers, troop transports, planetary bombers, fuelers and repairers and so on depending on the purpose. All out invasion bring everybody. Killing Spree forget the troops.

Needs to put Combat Sensors and ECM on all ships. I often see Dreadnoughts without them even though they have the tech for it and has had it in other ships. Makes them sitting ducks.

It should build more base space yards. I tweaked mine to build them at once and build more then in the shipping set and I get a better fight out of it since it can build more ships at the same time.

Personalize the AI's by giving each AI indiviual AI_Speech files based on personality and demeanor. Each race says the same thing all the time and that just doesn't make it very interesting to talk to them. Also make demand Messages clearer. Took me awhile to realise that "We warn you, the Eee will betray you" was a demand to break my treaty with the Eee.

I know there's more that has bugged me about the AI but I can't remember it all right now. Pretty much as it is anyway.

Non-AI issue I just had to mention:

Advanced storage technique should affect empire storage of resources and minimum empire storage should be multiplied by number of starting planets.
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  #23  
Old January 14th, 2001, 03:07 AM

jpinard jpinard is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

I'll be sending the suggestions tomorrow evening EST (Sunday). In the meantime, if you have fixed specific AI problems - SEND THE FILES TO ME:

jpinard@home.com

This will greatly aid the speed in which MM can develop and deploy the fixes. The more REAL examples we can SHOW them, the easier the fixes will come. Thanks.
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  #24  
Old January 14th, 2001, 03:15 AM
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Jubala Jubala is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Just remembered a couple more.

The AI is too scraphappy. Why not mothball for later use? When production file calls for something check if it exists but is mothabelled and unmothball it if does.

It also scraps still useful ships to build bigger ships instead of keeping the smaller ships around and retrofitting them to keep up with technology.

I don't know if the AI retrofits at all, but if it does (haven't seen it), it doesn't do it enough as I often see AI fleets with a few brand spanking new ships and a bunch of old buckets of rust. If all ships (or a majority) had been upgraded to the latest and greatest it could have stood a chance in defeating me.

It also needs to build more storage facilities to store the resources it generates so it can upgrade ships and bases.

It also needs to get rid of old weapon platforms and build new ones either by spacing them or moving them to a big planet with lots of cargo space where they are not in the way. Best would be if we could scrap units to get resources back. The AI likes to scrap so that would be good. It often has alot of very old weapon platforms on it's planets late in the game that can't even fire at the enemy. Give them extra range like bases. To sats too but not as much.

Repair Ships. The AI needs to use repair ships. Badly.

Strategic combat AI when it comes to boarding. Boarding just doesn't work unless you control the boarding ships yourself. Even if you arm the boarding ships with shield busting weapons they hang way back from the action and only moves in when an enemy ships shields are down. Problem is 99 times out of a 100 that ship is destroyed before they get there which means they will move back out of range. I tend to build armed boarding ships that can take alot of beating capable of knocking down shields, not always with shield busting weapons (don't have them yet). They work perfectly in tactical when I can control them myself but in strategic they do ****. Even against an unarmed freighter with shields they are impotent in strategic. If armed they need to get in there and pound away and if not they need to designate a target ship for boarding (decided in strategy, highest tech, strongest, whatever (I'd like to be able to specify specific known enemy designs)) and when the shields of ships flagged for boarding are down the rest of the fleet should stop shooting at it. Both if the boarder is armed and helps bring the shields down or is unarmed and hangs back until they are down. And they should start moving in before the shields are down so the enemy ship doesn't fly around shooting for too long before it is boarded. Related: Self Destruct Device should not work if ship has no engines left (description says it overloads the engines. change desc. or function). Also, it should not automatically destroy the boarding ship. Way to powerful (10kT instnatly destroys ship some distance away, 50kT ramming charge doesn't automatically destroy ship upon contact at high speed?). Random amount of damage between a set min and max, yes, but not instant destruction imo.

That's it for now. Will undoubtedly come up with more.
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  #25  
Old January 14th, 2001, 04:59 AM

Eisenhans Eisenhans is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Hey anyone read Barnacle Bill's remarks? I like all of his ideas! We need that!
Barnacle Bill!
Thanks for your comments in the mines thread too. I'll think about an answer as soon as I find time.(Might need some days though)
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  #26  
Old January 14th, 2001, 05:00 AM

Trachmyr Trachmyr is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Three more issues with how designcreation.txt works...

1) Min/Desired Speed is currently the number of engines a ship is to be built with... this needs to be changed to the actual speed achieved (so we can actualy use the ENGINES PER MOVE field)

2) When the AI tries to fill a requirement (i.e., cargo or supply) it looks for the componet with the biggest amount regardless of the componets mass... change this so that it looks at the ratio (for Instance, say I want to make colonizers hold 200 tons of cargo, but then when the AI is to place cargo room it would rather use Colony modules which would weigh 1 ton per ton storage, than cargo bays which get 7.5 tons storage per ton of weight)

3) The AI will not correctly use componets/facilities that satisfy multiple requirements.... Say for instance I wanted to make all spaceports also be able to resupply, or to create an improved crew quaters that also provides lifesupport... but in both cases the AI will build TWO of those facilities, one to satisfy each requirement, rather than just one to satisfy both requirements.

Additionaly, I too would like to see the AI scrap facilities to allow for better ones... place an additional field for these that tells the AI WHAT to scrap to make room for this fac when it is available but no room is left. (Example: On a Mining Colony, add the field to Robominers that tells it to scrap one mineral miner facility to make room for the robominer if there is nno room available when robominers become available)


On a final note I NEED the ability to limit componets to ships of certain tonnages, this can be done one of three ways:
1) Min Tonnage/Max Tonnage fields in componets.txt
2) allow us to put "%" after componets tonnage... this would raise a flag that tells the game that this componet weigs x% of the max of the vessel (also the structure, cost and supplies use could also have the %, which means that that would be the value per 100 tons of COMPONET weight)
3) Get the custom Groups and requirements fiels in vechiclesize.txt working
(I prefer that you implement #1 and #2)

Lastly, add a SUPPLIES DRAINED field to componets, so that componet would ALWAYS use x amount of supplies at the beggining of every turn (before resupply), and if supplies are not available the componet becomes damaged

Thanks MM for the support...
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  #27  
Old January 14th, 2001, 06:44 AM

Talenn Talenn is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Well, as far as AI and modding goes...I'd really like to see the ability to add more ship types to the Construction Queue instead of only 'Attack Ship' and 'Defense Ship' etc. Same goes for units.

I want to be able to add 'AA ship' and 'Torpedo Ship' or whatever is appropriate. This should allow modders to flesh out the AIs fleet designs a little bit more intelligently..

Also, add another BIG vote for combat initiative or else an attack or defender ALWAYS goes first system.

I'm sure there will be more, but I think the earlier Posts cover most of the rest.

Thanx,
Talenn
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  #28  
Old January 14th, 2001, 06:50 AM

Mac Mac is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

1)The AI doesn't handle minefields or black holes well.

2)Does the AI use the race AI's of the Default, if so, when?

3)The AI doesn't upgrade with a number but rather a new name. As mentioned, names.txt have to be alot bigger if this is going to continue.
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  #29  
Old January 14th, 2001, 07:05 AM
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Atrocities Atrocities is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

Talenn, You can. Just edit the Data files and add what you want. I did.
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  #30  
Old January 14th, 2001, 07:23 AM

Trachmyr Trachmyr is offline
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Default Re: Note from MM - AI MODDERS MUST READ THIS

quote:
Originally posted by Atrocities:
Talenn, You can. Just edit the Data files and add what you want. I did.


Actually, I think he's refering to Construction_Vechicles.txt, you can make diffrent variations of attack ships, but the AI must call for each variation as "Attack Ship" not the actual type, thus you have no ability to actually set the actual make-up of these diffrent kinds... AFAIK
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