Real World Philospohy

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by spoon:

Yes, but the example you cited wasn't accepted by scientists worldwide[/quote]... and if you'll note, I included both time and place when noting that there is a tendancy for theory about the ancient past to align with political needs....

Originally posted by spoon:
, just by the ones who would get shot for not following the party line...

... and those who aren't sufficiently close to the politically accepted Version elsewhere are simply excluded, to a similar effect overall (barring the personal perspective of 'but they got killed!' - either way, they still suddenly have very little impact on the community anymore)

Originally posted by spoon:
Again, you example isn't about science per se, but about people mis-using science for political reasons. The science of evolution is sound, reliable, and as close to proven as you can come in a theory. The fact that people were drawing fallacious social inferences from it, as the racists you mention did, does not make the science bad.

Not in and of itself - but when I made the post you are referring to, I was responding to a question on what political winds I thought the theory might be riding, not specific technical problems with it (which is what you seem to be responding to it as).

Originally posted by spoon:
This is a great example of immoral behavior. It, unfortunately, has nothing whatsoever to do with the legitimacy of science.

Again, not in and of itself - but when I made the post you are referring to, I was responding to a question on what political winds I thought the theory might be riding, not specific technical problems with it (which is what you seem to be responding to it as).

Originally posted by spoon:
Just for clarification, you need both a Creator and a Creator that provides these rules. I take it you mean a Christian God, since not all the gods were so forthcoming with imperatives as He.

Not all, but most have their lists of imperitives, and most do have their Version of "be good," however "good" is defined for them.

Originally posted by spoon:

In any case, you are wrong, since there are consequences for behavior in a secular society: Jail, for one.

That's a standard based on temporal power ... which I mentioned in the segment you quote ... and I even specified "that you can get away with" (which you also quoted).

I kinda get the impression you aren't reading these too terribly closely.

Besides, any secular system ultimately relies on most people wanting to follow the rules, as any enforcement system (barring things like field executions) can be overwhelmed by a sufficient number of rule breakers. The US seems to be having a touch of that problem at the moment.

Originally posted by spoon:
Ironically, you are free to do those things even with a Christian God. You just need to be sure to repent and accept Jesus as you savior sometime before you die. (at least according to some interpretations...)

With most, there is a catch to that - God wants a repentant heart. Someone confessing primarily to avoid consequences is not likely to get forgiveness. Also, the Bible is actually very clear on temporal consequences as well as the ultimate variety, and the ultimate variety is usually the only sort God forgives when someone repents.

Also, not all interpertations are correct.

Originally posted by spoon:
You see conspiracy, I see deduction...

There's a pretty big string of if's on that, several of which are pretty far from proven.

Originally posted by spoon:
Not so. The problems with the Big Bang model are well documented, and are currently being researched and studied and speculated on. The reason that the model is accepted today is because it does such a great job in explaining other factors...

Oy, do I need to make absolutely certain I include all my qualifiers and sub-explanations on there every single time? As I've mentioned before, they debate the details - sequence, mechanisims, and the like - but few dispute the main theses, when there are enough problems that they ought to be, and there are other possibilities for the other factors with different models.

Originally posted by spoon:
which seems like a valid thing to claim. Why is that a brush off?

Now I'm slightly confused - above you claim it is as nearly proven as a theory can be, and here you claim it's valid to claim it is currently undergoing re-evaluation - at first glance, those seem slightly contradictory. Please elaborate.

Also, it puts them in the interesting position of not needing to properly defend their position, as any problems are part of the "being evaluated" segment. I suspect it will be undergoing re-evaluation until the end of time.

Originally posted by spoon:

That's mainly because, in the case of evolution and the Big Bang, the vast majority of the details and mechanisms seem to support the theory.

Not really. There's lots of contradictions and problems with all competing camps. Besides, if the details and mechanisims actually supported the theory, there wouldn't be a need to debate them, as they would all essentially agree....

Originally posted by spoon:
There is a lot of money in Christianity, if someone had an idea that would overturn the thinking on evolution, I don't think they'd have a hard time getting money for it...

Christianity is more divided than you seem to think, and many of them either don't consider it important or consider other things more worthwhile. It's surprisingly difficult to get large amounts of funding for anything specific, more so for one which there is disagreement even between the different factions of Christianity.

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack Simth:
(what's the plural of thesis?)

theses

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Good to know.

Other's Posts later, as I have time.

[ November 20, 2003, 21:33: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]