Things in SEIV I never knew about....

[raynfala]

Sorry if this is old news, but I hadn't realized this before, and I just had an epiphany Last night, and felt I needed to share (and and and and... )!

Let's say you've managed to max out the Applied Research tech. Now let's say you have just colonized a planet with, oh... let's say... 20 facility slots. Now let's say you want the planet to be dedicated to research, so you order up 20 Research III facilities (let's ignore Computer Complexes and such).

Guess what? Assuming that your planetary construction rate is 2000/2000/2000, you're missing out on 100,000 extra research points at a cost of only 15,000 extra minerals.

Why? Research III facilities cost 2500 minerals to build; you'll build one every other turn. In contrast, Research II facilities cost 2000 minerals; you'll build one each and every turn. By building a new research facility each turn instead of every other turn, you'll be accumulating more research points sooner. The extra 100 points of research generated by a level III facility (compared to a level II facility) does not justify the extra turn necessary to build the level III facility directly. You're better off building level II facilities more quickly, and then upgrading afterwards. This is where the extra 15,000kT of minerals come in: an extra 25,000kT to upgrade the 20 facilities (half of the level III facilities' cost), minus the 10,000kT saved by building cheaper facilities up front.

If your empire production can support the extra expenditure, you should go for it!!!

I just verified this on a spreadsheet this morning. Eeek, a spreadsheet!!! Does that mean I'm helping SEIV turn into MOO3?

--Raynfala

[Slick]

Originally posted by raynfala:
Sorry if this is old news, but I hadn't realized this before, and I just had an epiphany Last night, and felt I needed to share (and and and and... )!

Let's say you've managed to max out the Applied Research tech. Now let's say you have just colonized a planet with, oh... let's say... 20 facility slots. Now let's say you want the planet to be dedicated to research, so you order up 20 Research III facilities (let's ignore Computer Complexes and such).

Guess what? Assuming that your planetary construction rate is 2000/2000/2000, you're missing out on 100,000 extra research points at a cost of only 15,000 extra minerals.

Why? Research III facilities cost 2500 minerals to build; you'll build one every other turn. In contrast, Research II facilities cost 2000 minerals; you'll build one each and every turn. By building a new research facility each turn instead of every other turn, you'll be accumulating more research points sooner. The extra 100 points of research generated by a level III facility (compared to a level II facility) does not justify the extra turn necessary to build the level III facility directly. You're better off building level II facilities more quickly, and then upgrading afterwards. This is where the extra 15,000kT of minerals come in: an extra 25,000kT to upgrade the 20 facilities (half of the level III facilities' cost), minus the 10,000kT saved by building cheaper facilities up front.

If your empire production can support the extra expenditure, you should go for it!!!

I just verified this on a spreadsheet this morning. Eeek, a spreadsheet!!! Does that mean I'm helping SEIV turn into MOO3?

--Raynfala

Yup. This applies to all "level II" facilities like Mineral Miners, Intelligence centers, etc.

The most efficient way to build them is level II's (until you can build level III's in 1 turn due to population and happiness bonuses), leaving 2 slots open on larger worlds. After you build your level II's, then look at the build times for the appropriate facility to multiply the planet's output, system output and to upgrade. Do them in order of cheapest first. For research, you would build the Central Computer Complex, then the System Computer complex, then upgrade to level III's in that order. Better yet, build the system computer on another planet in parallel.

Slick.

p.s. I had to do the spreadsheet thing myself a few months ago to prove it to myself as well.

[kalthalior]

"I like to turn off the galaxy map grid. It give the big (small map on the lower right hand side) a more space feel."

I do this as well, and on the system map, I like to do the reverse and turn ON the grid to help me determine for far I can travel.

[DirectorTsaarx]

(Note: both quotes edited to conserve space)

Originally posted by Slick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by raynfala:
Research III facilities cost 2500 minerals to build; you'll build one every other turn. In contrast, Research II facilities cost 2000 minerals; you'll build one each and every turn. By building a new research facility each turn instead of every other turn, you'll be accumulating more research points sooner. The extra 100 points of research generated by a level III facility (compared to a level II facility) does not justify the extra turn necessary to build the level III facility directly. You're better off building level II facilities more quickly, and then upgrading afterwards. This is where the extra 15,000kT of minerals come in: an extra 25,000kT to upgrade the 20 facilities (half of the level III facilities' cost), minus the 10,000kT saved by building cheaper facilities up front.

I just verified this on a spreadsheet this morning. Eeek, a spreadsheet!!! Does that mean I'm helping SEIV turn into MOO3?

--Raynfala

Yup. This applies to all "level II" facilities like Mineral Miners, Intelligence centers, etc.

p.s. I had to do the spreadsheet thing myself a few months ago to prove it to myself as well.

---

Don't feel bad about this; back in December 2000/January 2001 there was a whole thread dedicated to figuring out the required formula, and whether there was a break-even point where it was better to accept the 2-turn build times of level 3 facilities vs. building level 2 facilities and upgrading later. It was a bit more complicated when comparing mineral miner facility builds, because then the upgrade cost reduced the benefit of the extra production. But it turned out as Slick mentioned - no matter how many facilities are involved, it's better to spend 1 turn building a level 2 facility and upgrade later than to spend 2 turns building a level 3 facility.

Too bad that thread is lost to the sands of old servers...

[Slick]

Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:

Too bad that thread is lost to the sands of old servers...

Here's the thread that I think you are talking about:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...=007178#000000

Had a hard time finding the thread, but I knew it was one I started. I never did come back to post my results, but they are here.

By the way, the unfortunate thing about this fact is that once you have level III of any facility, (min, org, rad, research, intel), you best not be upgrading all your facilities with the construction queue. This will update the level II's in the queues to III's, and this is NOT what you want.

Slick.

[ March 20, 2003, 01:24: Message edited by: Slick ]

[Atrocities]

Things I did not know about SEIV.

1. That it was so horribly addictive
2. That I would become so involved with it as to make 25 ship sets.
3. That the community would be the way that it is.
4. That is would be well supported
5. That it would still be my Top played game after two years.
6. That the game would be so enjoyable to learn and talk about.
7. That the game would be easily modible.
8. That there would be so many mods for the game.
9. That it would kick MOO3's arse.
10. That it continuely draws new players who can not believe that such a game has existed for over two years.

These things were welcome surprises.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Slick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:

Too bad that thread is lost to the sands of old servers...

Here's the thread that I think you are talking about:

(Link deleted because it's causing serious formatting problems)

Had a hard time finding the thread, but I knew it was one I started. I never did come back to post my results, but they are here.

By the way, the unfortunate thing about this fact is that once you have level III of any facility, (min, org, rad, research, intel), you best not be upgrading all your facilities with the construction queue. This will update the level II's in the queues to III's, and this is NOT what you want.

Slick.

---

Well, actually, here is the thread I was referring to:

LINK to thread discussing upgrading vs. straight build

It took me a while to figure out which thread I wanted because the original thread was a different topic...

[ March 20, 2003, 15:52: Message edited by: DirectorTsaarx ]