Fundamentals and Gamey

[DavidG]

change "no effect at all" to "almost no effect" and "You will never overcome the deficit you've created." to "you will have difficulty overcoming..." and I would agree 100%

I think one of the great things about Se4 is you can win with a large variety of strategies. Taking a negative or no bonus in attack and defense does not guarantee a loss.

[ February 02, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: DavidG ]

[geoschmo]

Basically, the question is the difference the players skill or the racial setup? The question is not an easy one to answer. And Taera, even if I don't agree with you I think it's great that people bring up these points. I have been arguing similer arguments for almost two years now on these forums, and I have played a LOT of games. My actual experience is a strong factor in my opinion.

I lose more than my fair share of games. I have a reputation as a great player, and that's really not justified. I think I have just been around long enough that people think I must be good.

But I have lost a lot of games to players that had lower agg/def stats than me, and I have beaten plenty of players that had higher.

Your list of characteristics, racial choices, and research priorities would make a good solid combination in a game. But by no means an unbeatable one. You could program an AI that would do all the things you suggest, and it would still lose to even an average skill level player.

But in a game with players of fairly equal tactical skill, it could very well make the difference. I don't see this as a problem however. It's part of the game. Something has to make the difference.

Geoschmo

[ February 02, 2003, 16:58: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Quikngruvn]

Originally posted by PvK:
Sounds like I need to finish my balance mod.

Yes! I, for one, would like to see it in use in PBW games....

Quikngruvn

[Grandpa Kim]

Originally posted by DavidG:
change "no effect at all" to "almost no effect" and "You will never overcome the deficit you've created." to "you will have difficulty overcoming..." and I would agree 100%

David, I stand by my complete statements. "No effect on your chance to win the game." It will certainly change the way you play the game, but not effect your chances. "You will never overcome the deficit..." and you won't. You could still win, but it will be much more difficult and much less likely.

But as Geoschmo suggests, even more important than all of this is player skill-- the true deciding factor.

[Shadowstar]

What SEIV really needs is to take a lesson from Stars! and release a patch that will allow modders to optionally set an exponent increase factor for each stat. Then, it will be less about min/max and thresholds and more about mathematics. The higher the stat goes, the more points it should cost to increase it, so that the costs go up exponentially.

For instance, it might take 1 point to go from Agressiveness 100 to 101, but maybe 2 points to go to 102, and 4 to reach 103, 8 for 104, 16 for 105, 32 for 106, and so on. That expample may be a little steep, but you get the idea, and the values should be definable for each stat in the settings file.

I've been tweaking the current settings and messing around with thresholds for a while now but I can't seem to find any settings I really like; none that would seem to create perfect (or at least near perfect) balance. I sometimes find myself yearning for Stars!' old race creation wizard... It may have been old and it had its flaws, but you really had to think, and plot, and compute, to get a "monster race" with it, and even then, chances are someone would think of something totally radical that you hadn't thought of that was just as good or even better, and discovering those races and the players who played them was part of the fun.

[Slick]

I look at it this way. Everyone starts with the same number of points, which is perfectly fair. Then you set up your race the way you choose, which is also perfectly fair. Now, your overall game plan has to be coordinated from the first click of setting up the race until the game is over. You need to set up your empire knowing how you set up your strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly. You have to be flexible to adapt to the in-game specifics, but so does everyone else; again fair. Now managing your empire relations is as important to your game plan as anything else. Sizing up other races as targets, allies, co-conspirators, or whatever should be done with your game plan and your relative strengths/weaknesses in mind.

One of my favorite games is "Risk". In that game, if you are playing with good players, it is often not the seemingly most powerful player that wins. Position, alliances (yes, with some backstabbing too), and timing make all the difference. The same is true in SE4. If you are leading in position #1, be prepared for everyone else to see you as a threat. If you are "sucking the hind tit" (pardon my French), then you are not seen as a threat. In either case, you have to play accordingly. I can remember playing Risk with this one guy who would always position himself around 3rd or 4th place during most of the game and he would always win by a combination of tactics. He would get the strong guys to fight each other and weaken themselves, he would ally with others to strengthen his position, he would strike at the perfect time. All these apply to SE4 and to consider them "gamey" is to lose the flavor of the game.

Yes, there are good players out there, and being beat by them is a good way to learn. It is easy to get into an always-win mode when playing agains the AI and then feel slighted when a human cleans your clock. The goal is to learn from each mistake, take your lumps and one day come back to be king of the hill (to borrow a cool title).

Slick.

[Shadowstar]

There is a difference between gamey and skill. Skill is legit and fun, gamey is lame and no fun.

Gamey is when the rules are set up so as to limit variety in play by having one combination that works so well that everyone uses it. That may be fine for some who consider the whole race design part to be just some annoying part you have to go through to get to the actual game, but for many it's part of the gaming experience.

Some factors of race creation have a much more significant effect on the game than others, and yet they are treated the same when it comes thier cost in points. As such, you have people minimizing the least effective stats and then putting those points into the areas that are most effective. 9 out of 10 players will end up essentially playing the same race, with very few or very superficial differences between them. The result is a stale game experience.

This has nothing to do with skill, and it amazes me how many people seem to be completely oblivious to this. This whole discussion is about how certain flaws in the game rules can eliminate or at least severely hamper the possibilites of creativity and variety in the game. Anyone who tries to be different or creative is squashed because they didn't copy everyone else and create an uber-race.

And the "you're better off because your score is lower and nobody considers you a threat" argument is crap, trust me. I've played enough games to know this. If people don't consider you a threat because your race sucks, the fact of the matter is, your race sucks and you might as well give up now and not even waste your time.