Fighters should pay support!

Barnacle Bill · #1 January 28th, 2001, 01:42 PM

The problem seems to be that the AI can't handle when you use large numbers of fighters defensively. When you are on the offense with fighters, you are limited by the need to build & maintain the carriers and transport replacement fighters to the front. Fighters are not a problem for humans, because they just adapt. The AI, though, can't deal with the defensive strategy of a human having every planet build fighters continuously and launch them.

Other than maintenance, there are a few ways to deal with this:

1) Make fighters have to land in the same strategic turn in which they were launched, like fights in Civilization, Empire, etc... This would require a change in the current system in which they can't move on the system map in the turn of launch, which would in turn require the program to track which had already moved that turn. However, it would no longer need to track fuel so this should be a wash, programming-wise. This would limit the fighters in a system to what would fit in planetary cargo.

2) Eliminate the ability to launch fighters from planets. I think this one could be done as a mod, without programming changes. In conjunction with this, a programming change could make it possible to put fighter bays on WP's. That would not really solve the problem, though, as you could still launch the fighters and stack them up in space infinitely. Just eliminating the planetary launch ability would also let you keep piling them up in space, but you'd be forced to build a base at every planet with enough fighter bays to launch one turn's worth of production. #1 is a better and more realistic solution.

3) House rule - this is an "AI can't deal with human strategy" issue, so just don't use that strategy,

Jubala · #2 January 28th, 2001, 04:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by raynor:
I have determined that point defense cannons are pretty worthless against fighters if you play tactical. Just englobe the ship with the point defense and keep attacking it until the PD Cannons are destroyed. I doubt this is how it works. But with my tons and tons of fighters, it's hard to keep track of when the PD cannons fire. They *HAVE* to be firing even if neither my fighters or the ship with the PD cannons move. But sometimes it sure does seem they aren't firing.

That's probably because they aren't firing. They only fire when the ship they are on move or something they can fire at move. So if you surround the ship with pdc's so it can't move and don't move any fighters in range of the pdc's the pdc's won't fire. Silly, but that's the way it is.

As for fighters paying maintainance, I think they should. But not much. Make it an option at game setup and the amount being payed editable in settings.txt.

And I like Bills idea about fighters having to land somewhere the same turn as they are launched. Or maybe the next turn. Maybe an advanced life support system could enable that. It just doesn't make sense to me that you can park some fighters on a warp point or in orbit for 50 years without the pilots dying.

raynor · #3 January 28th, 2001, 06:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Q:
I prefer the way it is with no maintenance cost for fighters because:
- To use fighters really efficiantly you need carriers, which cost maintenance.

To use them offensively in a system where you do not have a colony, yes, you need a carrier. Otherwise, you don't. I think the key reason why I think fighters should pay support is their ability to leave orbit en masse, group together in a huge fleet, and attack enemy ships inside the system.

Of course, the main reason I want them to pay maintenance is because I have fun using them. But I've gotten so good that I feel like I'm cheating. If I don't have to start paying some sort of maintenance, I'll have to voluntarily stop using them...

Elwood Bluze · #4 January 28th, 2001, 06:58 PM

Mah fellow galaxians.... let them pay maintenance instead of support, then. No supportation without maintenancation!

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Elwood Bluze

Baron Munchausen · #5 January 28th, 2001, 08:56 PM

This is another case of the difference between a human and an AI making problems for game play. Only a human knows how to mass fighters cleverly, at least right now. I think the best idea so far is to limit the time they can spend away from a "dock" of some kind. Change them to be automatically destroyed if not recovered a certain number of strategic turns after launch and many of these problems are reduced. Especially the bit about building them and pushing them out into space until you've got 10 times the planet's/base's capactiy sitting there in the sector.

Daynarr · #6 January 28th, 2001, 09:42 PM

It would be also nice if the AI would launch fighters in orbit as they are built, just like he does with satellites.

Zanthis · #7 January 29th, 2001, 08:13 AM

First, I'd like to say I support unit maintenance. I like the separate definable categories in the Settings file. I don't think mines should pay maint. tho, I just think they should have a really low percent chance of dying each turn in space.

I also think fighters need limited "flight" time. It could easily be done by adding two abilities and placing them on the fighter bodies.

1) Unit uses supply every turn. Fill in a number for this ability and every turn that unit/ship uses that many supplies, whether or not it moves.

2) Unit destroyed when out of supplies. Simple, when it runs out of supplies, it dies.