Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available

[Aloofi]

[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:

Build, upgrade, build, upgrade. The costs are the same, but if you are upgrading as you go you are benefitting from the increased output of the upgraded facilities.

...

But the output diference between a minor city and a city doesn't seem to be that great.
Are you sure that its not more efficient to build a new minor city than to upgrade a minor city to a city?
In both cases the original minor city its already producing, but building a new one will bring more income into my treasure than the upgrade increase.
I don't have the game here, so when I get back home I'll check the Facility.txt file to get some hard numbers.
This issue its mighty interesting...

[PsychoTechFreak]

Cities are only for ppl playing the loooooong game.

This mod is in particular for the little longterm builders in us, isn't it? If I would be asked for the most effective way to win, I guess it would be something like:

-not many planets to develop, just for special facilities like ship training etc.
-remote mining for higher production output
-capture as many home planets as soon as possible

But I think the upgrades should take longer or at least as long as the building from scratch and this is not the case. Upgrades can be abused to save time and material. Wasn't there setting value for upgrade costs, maybe this might be tweaked a bit?

EDIT: I am at about 25 years in my single player game and I can second that the AI does quite a good job, developing worlds, ship designs etc., nice ! Troops and WPs on homeworlds, grrrr

[ February 24, 2003, 17:35: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[oleg]

[quote]Originally posted by Aloofi:
[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:
[qb]

Build, upgrade, build, upgrade.
...

This issue its mighty interesting...

Yes indeed. It comes up every time proportions mod is discussed. Fascinating.

[Fyron]

But I think the upgrades should take longer or at least as long as the building from scratch and this is not the case. Upgrades can be abused to save time and material. Wasn't there setting value for upgrade costs, maybe this might be tweaked a bit?

I am fairly certain that that was PvK's intention there.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
[QB
EDIT: I am at about 25 years in my single player game and I can second that the AI does quite a good job, developing worlds, ship designs etc., nice ! Troops and WPs on homeworlds, grrrr [/QB]

Yes, I saw that too. I'm about 20 years into the game and I tried to take on a neutral Homeworld, and my mighty fleet got cut to pieces.
They had 50 WP, 10 of them Medium size, over 10 Space stations (mostly armed shipyards), about 40 sats, plus some 300 fighters and.....troops!

It was amazing, I felt as if I was really taking on a homeworld. I have to handle to PvK and all the others involved making Proportions, its the greatest mod I have ever played in any game. I'm so hooked that I find myself thinking about it when I shouldn't .

By the way, playing without any bonus, the AI out produce me and out research me. Though next time I will play without neutrals. Its too easy to lose 3/4 of my fleet in a battle and then retreat to the neighboring system and be secured because the AI can't attack me there. I'm not playing with neutrals no more. If that have been the Druks I would had probably lost a bunch of colonies until my fleet were able to hold the tide.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

But I think the upgrades should take longer or at least as long as the building from scratch and this is not the case. Upgrades can be abused to save time and material. Wasn't there setting value for upgrade costs, maybe this might be tweaked a bit?

I am fairly certain that that was PvK's intention there.

---

Upgrade Facility Cost Percent := 50

Hmm, I mean this is ok for let's say research center 1 to upgrade to research center 3. With the extremely larger differences between e.g. minor city and metropolis or higher it looks like ... cheating? But it is OK, if there are good reasons or other restrictions that I do not see yet.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
[QBUpgrade Facility Cost Percent := 50

Hmm, I mean this is ok for let's say research center 1 to upgrade to research center 3. With the extremely larger differences between e.g. minor city and metropolis or higher it looks like ... cheating? But it is OK, if there are good reasons or other restrictions that I do not see yet.[/QB]

I think its kind of right.
Settlement: 5Kt of each resource
Col. Commun: 10 Kt of each
With 50 % upgrade it takes exactly the same time to build one colonial community than to build a settlement and then upgrade.

On the other hand, the investment return is far better on the lowly settlement than in the Colonial Comm.
Settlement cost: 5000 min.
Settlement prod: 125 min.
Returns investment in 40 turns (4 years)

colonial comm cost: 10 000 min.
colonial comm prod: 150 min.
Returns investment in 66 turns (6 years and 6 months)

Minor city cost: 15 000 min.
Minor city Prod: 175 min.
Returns investment in 85 turns (8 years and a half)

So its obvious that is better to build all the settlements you want first, and then start upgrading.
Still, building cities should be considered something like a personal goal or a show of power. Their output doesn't justifie their cost when you compare them to a mineral miner facility:

Mineral Miner I facility cost: 1800 min.
Mineral Miner I facility prod: 200 min.
Returns investment in 9 turns (9 months) and produce more than a minor city.

Mineral Miner Complex I cost: 11 000 min.
Mineral Miner Complex I prod: 400 min.
Returns investment in 27 turns (2 years and 7 months)

So replicating a Homeworld in a colony its just not impossible, but non-profitable, which I think acurately simulate that many things a Homeworld have are not just for profit, but a product of social and cultural evolution.