[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society - Page 20

Jack Simth · #**191** March 20th, 2003, 02:55 AM

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As there is no outside of the universe,

On what basis do you make this claim? There have been hypothesis in the past that there are other universes - the problem being that they can neither be proved nor disproved, and thus they haven't recieved much serious attention.

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I did not postulate that.

I didn't say you had. It appears you missed the qualifier "if" . . . and then you ignored the rest of the statement about quantum mechanics, which does leave room for non-determinism (one way of saying free will).

However, if you don't postulate that, then you leave the option of an independent soul open, which would really throw determinism out the window.

Jack Simth · #**192** March 20th, 2003, 03:08 AM

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... a perfectly free-willed decision devoid of any other factors ...

That is a ridiculously tight-fisted statement, Fyron. "... a perfectly free-willed decision devoid of any other factors ..."(emhasis added) I don't think anyone who claims sanity claims to be totally unaffected by events, while it seems you would only be satisfied by such a response. This strikes me as unrealistic of you.

Edit: And just to beat you to the punch, it is a very big jump to go from affected by to determined solely by.

[ March 20, 2003, 01:15: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

Fyron · #**193** March 20th, 2003, 03:17 AM

I was just trying to start a philosophical debate, but I can see that has failed miserably. Maybe I should just stop looking at this thread altogether.

Suicide Junkie · #**194** March 20th, 2003, 03:22 AM

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And it's not an illusion that I have free choice.

Ah, but how can you tell for sure? Or within a reasonable doubt?

Jack Simth · #**195** March 20th, 2003, 03:44 AM

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I was just trying to start a philosophical debate, but I can see that has failed miserably. Maybe I should just stop looking at this thread altogether.

That is the fastest I have seen you back off of a position.

Jack Simth · #**196** March 20th, 2003, 03:47 AM

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Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Ah, but how can you tell for sure? Or within a reasonable doubt?

Turn it around - How can you tell for sure (or wihin a reasonable doubt) that free will is an illusion? Until you can demonstrate your side, one hypothesis is as equally valid as the other. However, I made a point about quantum mechanics a while back which would support free will....

Jack Simth · #**197** March 20th, 2003, 03:53 AM

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I was just trying to start a philosophical debate, but I can see that has failed miserably. Maybe I should just stop looking at this thread altogether.

Failed how? There are people in this thread making logical arguments on exactly the topic in question.

Ragnarok · #**198** March 20th, 2003, 03:55 AM

You mean I was able to turn Fyron around?!?

Sorry to deter your philosophical debate Fyron, that wasn't my intentions, I just simply wanted to bring out that we do have free will. I will now leave and you can have your debate.

Atrocities · #**199** March 20th, 2003, 03:56 AM

What is this thread about? I have never seen it before. It just appeared here magically one day. And now it has swelled in size. OMG! Its taking over!

Jack Simth · #**200** March 20th, 2003, 03:58 AM

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Originally posted by Ragnarok:
You mean I was able to turn Fyron around?!?
Sorry to deter your philosophical debate Fyron, that wasn't my intentions, I just simply wanted to bring out that we do have free will. I will now leave and you can have your debate.

I'm not entierly sure it was you....