[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society

[Fyron]

Jack:
That is the fastest I have seen you back off of a position.

Rags:
You mean I was able to turn Fyron around?!?

There is a difference between holding a position and playing Socrates.

Rags:
Sorry to deter your philosophical debate Fyron, that wasn't my intentions, I just simply wanted to bring out that we do have free will. I will now leave and you can have your debate.

Your post had not an ounce of logical argument or philosophical merit to it, actually. All you did was to say "this is how it is". There was no reasoning given.

Originally posted by Jack Simth:

quote:

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Originally posted by Atrocities:
What is this thread about? I have never seen it before. It just appeared here magically one day. And now it has swelled in size. OMG! Its taking over!

OT topics are the meterietes of the forums - they burn big and bright, for a relatively short time until people get tired of them and stop posting. It has happened before. Set the view to "Show All Topics" and you can see for yourself. This one only has 200 Posts so far; others have many more.

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I assume Atrocities was joking. Look at his post count. He has posted here enough times to know about OT topics. In fact, he has started several of those OT threads that swelled in sized.

[ March 20, 2003, 02:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Chronon]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
What is this thread about? I have never seen it before. It just appeared here magically one day. And now it has swelled in size. OMG! Its taking over!

Well, we seem to have left behind our discussion of Fyron's theory that the Roman Catholic Church slowed progress and lengthened the "Dark Ages" by a couple hundred years, the topic that started this thread, and moved on to all kinds of philosophical meanderings. Since we're talking about predestination, perhaps we have found our way back to early-modern religion. Are you a closet Calvinist Fyron?

[ March 20, 2003, 03:14: Message edited by: Chronon ]

[Fyron]

It is probably time to give this thread a more appropriate title.

No, I am not a Calvinist. We are not talking about predestination. Predestination is the belief that everyone's final destination in the afterlife is determined before they are born. Their actions on Earth make no difference between whether they go to heaven or hell. This is wholely different than determinism v. free will.

[ March 20, 2003, 03:24: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Jack Simth:

quote:

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Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Ah, but how can you tell for sure? Or within a reasonable doubt?

Turn it around - How can you tell for sure (or wihin a reasonable doubt) that free will is an illusion? Until you can demonstrate your side, one hypothesis is as equally valid as the other. However, I made a point about quantum mechanics a while back which would support free will....

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Exactly.
The post I was quoting had much determination, but nothing concrete backing it up.
I was just trying to encourage something deeper than "yes it is" "no it isn't".

[Fyron]

I was just trying to encourage something deeper than "yes it is" "no it isn't".

Yes, this was the crux of the problem. There is absolutely nothing logical or philosophical about the responses (the QM post comes close, but not quite). The original post about this was not meant as an end-all, beat-all argument, but more as a topic to discuss.

[ March 20, 2003, 04:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Yes, this was the crux of the problem. There is absolutely nothing logical or philosophical about the responses (the QM post comes close, but not quite). The original post about this was not meant as an end-all, beat-all argument, but more as a topic to discuss.

All right, then, um..

I do not ever make a conscious choice between eating food and not eating food. According to the laws of nature, the cells in my body will begin to die without a constant supply of energy (in the form of glucose). So, I eat food. I do not eat it because I actively set out to eat it. Just a few examples for contemplation.

How then could you explain the monks who deprive themselves for spiritual enlightenment or those who suicide? If everything is determined by the laws of nature, which state that things want to survive, then they cannot be explained. They can, however, if you postulate that the people involved have free will.
If you postulate that they do not have free will, and do so as a result of social and economic pressures, then you must also explain why most people don't.
If you postulate that people do what they do because of their genetic makeup and how they were raised, then you must also address how the child of a child beater will often not become a child beater him- or her- self, despite the very strong tendency for the furtheration of the parents' habits that is known to exist.

[Chronon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is probably time to give this thread a more appropriate title.

Yes, you're probably right. See new title above...