I Did It.

[Fyron]

Ok. Micromanage it so that a lot (10 or so) of high-cost projects all finish on the same turn. That will definitely cause them all to succeed. If it is an unbalancing project like PPP or a planet-buster, then there is a big problem.

[Phoenix-D]

"Ok. Micromanage it so that a lot (10 or so) of high-cost projects all finish on the same turn. That will definitely cause them all to succeed."

If your opponent has been putting points in counter intel..it shouldn't.

Say you have equal intel points, he's using CI 1 (i.e. no point modifier). 20k per turn each, half toward attack. You both attack with a 20k project. A attacks one at a time, B attacks en mass with micromanagement.

Turn 1:
A puts 10k into CI, total 10k
B puts 10 into CT, total 10k
A puts 10k into A1, total 10k
B puts 10k into B1, total 10k

Turn 2:
A: 10k CI, 20k total
B: 10k CI, 20k total
A: 10k into A2 (A1, A2 10k each total)
B: attacks with B1: 20k lost from A's defense

Turn 3:
A: 10k CT, 10k total
B: 10k CI, 30k total
A: 10k into A3 (A1-3 10k each)
B: 10k into B2, 10k total

Turn 4:
A: 10k CI, 20k total
B: 10k CI, 40k total
A: 10k into A4 (A1-4 10k each)
B: attacks with B2, 20k lost from A's defense

Turn 5:
A: 10k CI, 10k total
B: 10k CI, 50k total
A: splits into A1-4 (A1-4 12.5k each)
B: 10k into B3, 10k total

Turn 6:
A: 10k CI, 20k total
B: 10k CI, 60k total
A: splits into A1-4 (1-4 15k each)
B: attacks with B3, 20k lost from A's defense

Turn 7:
A: 10k CI, 10k total
B: 10k CI, 70k total
A: aplits into A1-4 (1-4 17.5k each)
B: 10k into B4, 10k total

Turn 8:
A: 10k CI, 20k total
B: 10k CI, 80k total
A: attacks with A1, A2, A3 and A4. 80k lost from B's CI.
B: attacks with B4, 20k lost from A's CI

Net effect: same. The only benifit you get is if your attacks can go over the total amount of CI that can be stored by the other empire- if they use all 12 slots, you'd need a project that costed 500k points or more. In unmodded SE4, all they have to do to ensure they stop this sort of attack is have four CI3 projects. And this if ALL your CI slots are used up with the most costly project.

Phoenix-D

[Fyron]

What was the point of that long post? I know how the intel system works, and I already said that it is very terrible.

[Phoenix-D]

Proving your statement wrong was the point of that post. Actually it was overly friendly to the attacker..

Phoenix-D

[Fyron]

My statement holds if there are more than 2 empires. My statement holds if the attacker produces much more than the defender (which is a more likely occurance than both making the same amount of intel). Your proof only holds when the defender makes relatively the same level of intel as the attacker(s).

[ April 08, 2003, 20:26: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Phoenix-D]

In which case you could -also- get through with one project at a time, which defeats the point of the argument in the first place- that massing your intel points would be more effective.

The only advantage to massing projects is it gives your target less time to respond by putting more into CI. If he's already doing 100% defense (or enough to stop your attacks) mass won't help.

Phoenix-D

[spoon]

yup, you have x points to attack with each turn. Doesn't matter if you do x per turn or 10x every 10 turns. You still reduce CI the same amount.

[ April 08, 2003, 21:29: Message edited by: spoon ]

[Fyron]

My statement was never meant to include a situation in which the defender has more defense than the attacker can ever under any circumstances breach. It was never meant to include a situation in which the defender has 12 CI 3 projects running. That is a very special and specific circumstance that is irrelevant to my general statement.

Massing your intel points is not meant to be more effective at getting the same number of projects through in the same amount of time. That is never what I said it was for. It is for breaching a high level of stored CI points all at once. If their CI projects are nearly maxed out (which always happens in games where both sides get some intel and there is a peaceful build-up), then spending X each turn on attacks can be blocked with Y CI production each turn, where Y is the equivalent to X in defense points. If you instead hold your attacks until a lot of projects are ready to complete at once, then you can get a larger multiple of X (C*X) all at once, which will not be canceled that turn by Y, and so a lot of stored CI points can be defeated in that turn. If C*X is large enough, you can get projects through in that turn. You will not be able to get them through in the next turn, because you can only get X attack points in, and they can still make Y defense points. So, you can get nothing to succeed by spending X each turn, or you can get some projects to succeed by massing C*X points into attacks and have them all finish at once.

If the defender has enough intel production to fill a few CI projects each turn, then of course nothing will ever be able to get through. I was never talking about such a situation.

[Phoenix-D]

Fyron, that's a special case in and off itself. In regular SE4, the largest project you'd want to use is 100k. CI3 holds 500k, so even ignoring all the bonus you need 5 of them to beat it. He can stop your massed attacks with just three CI projects and have points left over to smash a few more projects from other empires. Meanwhile, you have NO CI defense.

Even using the 150k project doesn't help that much. You can put a max of 1800k into a one-turn attack; that needs four CI3 to counter, nowhere near the max he could have.

In a mod, yes the CI points storeable would have to be raised if the cost of intel was raised, or this would work.

Phoenix-D

[Fyron]

It is not a special case, it is the general case. It applies to most game situations that are not the end-game.