Next Patch Suggestion

[Drake]

quote:

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Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
The cost associated with the upgrade to RF III is based on upgrading RF I's to RF III's, not RF II's to RF III's.

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Aren't those costs the same? I thought all upgrade costs were 50% of the cost to build the new facility from scratch.

-Drake

[raynor]

I'm curious.

Even after I get Mineral Miner III's, I prefer to continue building Mineral Miner II's because they finish building in a single turn. Thus, I get the added production immediately instead of getting just 100 more per turn two turns later. Later, after I've maxed out my facilities, I'll upgrade them all en masse. It doesn't seem that I lose any production while I'm upgrading.

Does anyone else keep building Miner II's after they've researched Miner III's?

Because I do things this way, I really hate it when I tell it to 'Upgrade Facilities', and it changes all my Miner II's in production to Miner III's. The same goes for farms and research labs.

Edit->

Hmm... I really, really wonder now. It *always* seemed I was getting a better deal by building 25 Miner II's and then spending 25 turns probably upgrading them all to Miner III's. It just didn't seem worth it to wait an extra turn for each facility just for 100 more minerals per turn. But if it turns out that I'm spending 2000 resources per turn for 25 turns to upgrade it to a Miner III, then maybe I'm not coming out ahead after all.

Where is mathematically minded Zanthis?

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 08 February 2001).]

[Nyx]

quote:

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Does anyone else keep building Miner II's after they've researched Miner III's?

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Nope. Though I'll be interested to see the numbers if anyone calculates them as requested, if it is better to build the #2 and then upgrade to #3.

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[DirectorTsaarx]

quote:

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Originally posted by Drake:
Aren't those costs the same? I thought all upgrade costs were 50% of the cost to build the new facility from scratch.

-Drake

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You may be right about that; however, the comment is still mostly valid - why pay the same cost twice if you only have to pay it once?

raynor - it shouldn't take 25 turns to upgrade 25 Miner II's to Miner III's; it takes (25*0.5*[cost of Miner III])/build rate. Obviously, I'm using drake's formula for cost. But you're still probably paying more overall, since you've essentially payed for the entire Miner II, plus half of a Miner III, and only have a Miner III at the end. Which probably negates mining 100 extra minerals for a few extra turns (even when you assume multiple facilities, if you have a net loss per facility, multiple facilities just compound the problem).

EDIT:
I did some checking; a MMF II costs 2000 minerals, while a MMF III costs 2500 minerals. Using drake's formula, it would cost 1250 minerals to upgrade a MMF II (or even a MMF I) to a MMF III. Therefore, if you build a MMF II first, and then upgrade to a MMF III, you'll spend 3250 minerals total for that MMF III. Whereas if you build the MMF III in the first place, you'll only spend 2500 minerals. Which means the upgrade route cost an extra 750 minerals. Now, a MMF II mines 900 minerals per turn; the MMF III mines 1000 minerals per turn. So two turns' worth of production out of the MMF II generates 1800 minerals; the MMF III only got one turn's worth of production (because it took an extra turn to build), and therefore only generates 1000 minerals. In which case, you got a net gain of 50 minerals by using the "build fast, then upgrade" idea. If we extend this idea, taking longer to get around to upgrading, we use the following equations:

(Build fast, then upgrade [BFTU]):
(N * 900) - 750 minerals
(Build best facility slower [BBFS]):
(N-1) * 1000 minerals

For N = 3 (i.e., it takes an extra turn to get around to upgrading), BFTU yields 1950 minerals and BBFS yields 2000 minerals. So it was better to build the MMF III first, even though it took an extra turn.

This gets much more complicated when one considers building 15 MMF II's, then upgrading all of them, rather than building the MMF III's initially. But my instinct is that it's better to build the better facility, even if it takes a little longer. Or, better yet, put a space yard on your planet first and build faster (at least for PSY II's and above).

[This message has been edited by DirectorTsaarx (edited 08 February 2001).]

[raynor]

quote:

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Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
But you're still probably paying more overall, since you've essentially payed for the entire Miner II, plus half of a Miner III, and only have a Miner III at the end. Which probably negates mining 100 extra minerals for a few extra turns (even when you assume multiple facilities, if you have a net loss per facility, multiple facilities just compound the problem).

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If you build the Miner II one turn before you build the Miner III, doesn't that mean you get 900 extra minerals precisely one turn early? Intuitively, that seems like enough minerals to offset the upgrade cost but I'd have to sit down and do that math.

[raynor]

DirectorTsaarx:

If the Miner doesn't get any resource production until the next turn after it finishes building, then I show these numbers:

At the end of the second turn, the Miner II upgraded to a Miner III generates this many resources:

900-3250 = -2350

At the end of the second turn, the Miner III generates this many:

-2500

Thus, you are better off building the Miner II and then upgrading.

EDIT:

This math follows from your earlier statement that you are paying 750 more to build the Miner III. But since you are getting 900 minerals a turn earlier, you actually come out ahead by 900-750 = 150 (which is the difference between -2350 and -2500)

So, the real cost of a miner II upgraded to a Miner III is not 750 more, it is actually 150 less.

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 08 February 2001).]

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 08 February 2001).]

[Sinapus]

Actually, if your planet has a Planetary Space Yard II or better, it will build lvl III facilities in one turn.