"Real" ringworlds

[Dingocat85]

Originally posted by Gwaihir:
[Responding to why an empire would build a ringworld in real life:] If you can, why not? Having mastered the universe, sounds like a fun project to keep you busy for a while.

Your empire would never get the chance...there would always be some sort of problem or another facing the empire, and unless you had a "purpose" to building a Ringworld, you'd ***never*** get it built.
Every single living organism on this planet (so naturally, every single living organism in the universe aswell) wants to do only one thing: Find and fix problems. Evolution long ago realized that the universe was very, very far from perfect conditions for any living organism...so, the only way to have an organism maintain (and maybe even proliferate) its species' survival, would be to have it endlessly looking for, and fixing problems.
So, no matter how happy your population got in real life, there would always be someone that was unhappy, wanting their problem to be fixed. If you stifled their unhappiness, feelings of discontent would build up, until - you guessed it - Revolution time.
Look at it this way: Your ears are designed to hear, so if there's no sound, they won't work. Your tastebuds are designed to taste, so if there's nothing to taste, they won't work. Organisms are designed to fix problems - so if there are no problems to fix, the organism won't work.

Here's a quote from The Matrix, that backs me up:

Agent Smith: "Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program...Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from."

Originally posted by Gwaihir:
or better yet, neworks of black holes - i bet you could get a lot of energy (or *something*) out of an orchestrated system of black holes, somehow."

The only thing physicists see as a use for black holes (besides a big trash can ) is going forward in time, in a sense. Assuming you have enough fuel to do this, if you approach a black hole at a specific angle (and at a fast enough speed that you avoid getting sucked in), you'll get whipped around the black hole (very fast, since the gravitational pull of a black hole is so high), and get slung away from it, traveling at incredible speeds.
The faster you're traveling in space, the slower time moves for you - in other words, 1 second for you on your fast ship, would be longer than 1 second on Earth - in this example, 1 second on your ship would result in a good deal of time passing on earth.
When your ship finally slows down and starts moving at more reasonable speeds, you will have hardly aged, while the rest of the everyone & everything else will have aged considerably.

[ May 14, 2003, 12:19: Message edited by: Dingocat85 ]

[dogscoff]

OK, so apparently a Niven-esque ringworld is technically impossible since the materials required cannot physically exist.

How about an Orbital from the Culture novels? They look like ringworlds, except that they don't encircle the star, they just orbit it in the same way a planet does. They are much smaller (only a few hundred thousand or million miles across, if memory serves, although that still offers many multiples Earth's surface area) and because the star isn't at the centre of the ring, all the night/day problems are avoided straight off.

[Primogenitor]

I havnt read the culture novels so im not too sure about this but here goes. I got some background from the site below, by banks himself (apparently)
culture orbitals and stuff

A bit of basic research shows that it would have to be as strong as a ringworld. I like the idea of building it from pairs of plates and cables(sound familiar?), you could apply that to ringworlds too, to a degree. An orbital would be useable if unfinished, you would just have to have temporary walls around the edge. Ringworlds could be built from orbiting plates, but couldnt be spun at full speed untill completed.

Each orbital holds 20 earths surface and 1 earth can be made into 1500 orbitals. By contrast a ringworld is made from 250 earths and has 3 million times the surface area. So by orbitals 1 earth => 30000 earths and by ringworld 1 earth => 12000 earths. So orbitals are more efficient (in terms of surface area/mass ratio) and easier to make (cos smaller).

I have found one reaseon for contruction, going back to the original dyson sphere. Since all known energy is derived from the sun (eventually) to achieve maximum efficency you would have to cover all the sun with solar panels to harness it to maximum capacity. This is a sphereworld (without being lived on). It wouldnt have to be very large, only to about the orbit of mercury at most. Surely it would be easier to start a small star separatly though? cold fusion, for example

[Primogenitor]

Every single living organism on this planet .... wants to do only one thing: Find and fix problems.

Thats not stricly true. There is no concious disire to "fix problems". Its simply that those that do not "fix problems" die. Conside a group of foxes and a group of rabits. The foxes chase the rabits, the slow rabits are caught and die, so the remaining rabits are the only ones that can breed and the next generateion are on average faster. The slow foxes don't catch any rabits and die of starvation. Therefore only the fastest foxes breed and the next generatin is also, on average, faster than the previous one. This kills the slower of the new rabits, which get faster, and then starve the slower foxes, which get faster,..... and so on ad infinitum. Until you get light speed rabitts

We have ears because long ago things with ears did better than things without ears. Then things with relatively good ears did better than things with relatively bad ears. etc

Its a great debate whether this applies to emivromentaly mannipulative organisms (humans) because there nothing to compare us with. As a species, nothing hunts us, we dont have to struggle for food, we change our eviroment to suit us rahter than us changing to suit our enviroment, virtually everyone has children.

The question is, given everything else is equal, will a group that builds a ringworld do better than a group that doesn't build a ringworld. But how do you measure better?

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Primogenitor:

As a species, nothing hunts us, we dont have to struggle for food, we change our eviroment to suit us rahter than us changing to suit our enviroment, virtually everyone has children.

Nothing hunt us?
We hunt ourselves, and waste our lives and resources in civil wars, from an species perspective.
And some of us do have to struggle for food, and all of us have to adapt to the enviroment that we have changed.

.

[Primogenitor]

Ok then, point accepted

No other species hunts us. We are plagued by simian tribalism and teritoriality from our ancient genetic heritage that has little relevance to our "sentient" minds. Our selfish genes that once drove us to band together with others who were likely to hold other copies of those genes in order for those genes to prosper and spread now propell humanity on a hopeless course towards essesive resource accumulation and short term gains at the expense of long term survival. Unless our minds can surpass our genetic makeup, we are doomed to destroy ourselves in overpowering greed and guttony. Evolution had no design, no forsight, no plan, no morals, no order, no direction, no skill, no predictability, no rules, no fairness, in humanities creation. It simply is, because it could not be otherwise. Do we have the will to plan, to survive the evolutionary forces that would destroy us? Can our society evolve fast enough that we can survive without destroyed all the resources we need? Could the earth ever support a species like us again? Evolution may have given birth to us, and the earth may be our cradle, but you cannot stay in the cradle forever.

[/End Rant]

[Narrew]

I thought that Dyson Spheres were inhabited on the inside like a Ring World, but completely encompass the sun to trap all energy and possiably hide from the rest of the universe (wasnt it a Star Trek movie that found a bunch of Dyson Spheres?).

*sigh* too bad we have to mess around on this rock of a world instead of going out to the "Last frontier"