Question about general strategy: missles vs. fighters vs. drones vs. direct fire, etc

[atari_eric]

Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

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Originally posted by Taera:
lemme explain the gamey part because i am one of those who dont like it
that means that you discover the best combo and everyone plays it. that includes min/maxing. while it makes a good thing for short games, for large games, when you have 8 players with all races the same (none, rock; optimally min/maxed; all going for PPB/NSP ASAP etc) the game simply becomes... not as fun, i think.

There is nothing 'gamey' at all about choosing the best possible race style IMO. I suspect you'll get a lot of people who disagree with what you consider the best race anyway. I for example have never picked "none,rock" and actually have not seen a lot of players pick this.

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Another shining example of SEIV's variable gameplay. I tend to go Gas/(Oxy or H2) because I like to go the informational route (lots of Research/Intel); nothing like AST/Gas Giant - Huge/Planetary Info Facility to get the job done. I can see the reason for rock/none in the unmodded game (plenty of places to put Spaceyards) but in a pinch you could always build SY Bases; you can't build Reserach/Intel Bases though (to SJ's lament).

[spoon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Ganging up on someone because of a cultural choice is approaching gameyness... not to mention starting to get into fuzzy ethical areas.

Spoken like someone who always chooses Bezerker... heh

Really, though, the problem with ganging up on everyone who chose Bezerker is that, in a competitive game, that generally means two-thirds of the other players...

[teal]

Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

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Originally posted by teal:
[QB]
This is all a large preamble to asking the big question. Is their *anything* which can effectively counter Bezerkers with high (or maxed) aggressiveness or defensiveness? Put another way, if your opponent has high defensiveness/agressiveness and you do not, what strategy can you adopt that is a good long term strategy and not doomed to failure once he retrofits a couple of PD cannons onto his ships? So far I can't think of anything[QB]

As you have no doubt figured out now it is actually quite easy to do this. Simply get 4 of the 5 highest ranked players in a 6 player game to gang up on the #2 ranked berzerker.

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Hey you were #1 when we started! That was 50 turns ago to and you're only down to #2. More evidence to support my point...

[DavidG]

Originally posted by teal:

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

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Originally posted by teal:
[QB]
This is all a large preamble to asking the big question. Is their *anything* which can effectively counter Bezerkers with high (or maxed) aggressiveness or defensiveness? Put another way, if your opponent has high defensiveness/agressiveness and you do not, what strategy can you adopt that is a good long term strategy and not doomed to failure once he retrofits a couple of PD cannons onto his ships? So far I can't think of anything[QB]

As you have no doubt figured out now it is actually quite easy to do this. Simply get 4 of the 5 highest ranked players in a 6 player game to gang up on the #2 ranked berzerker.

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Hey you were #1 when we started! That was 50 turns ago to and you're only down to #2. More evidence to support my point...

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Well I think I was #2. And I'm #3 now and losing every big battle with minimal losses to the enemy. I think your point was that berzerker combo was virually unstoppable when combined with maxed aggerssive and defensive (which BTW I do not have) When 4 of the 5 top players in the game (the six being way way way Last) gang up on the berzerker the outcome is pretty much a forgone conclusion. (especially when they are in the corner and the berzerker in the middle) Berzerker is not the all powerfull attribute you make it out to be. Cetainly not in a multiplayer game.

[kingdom]

Personally, TEAL there is nothing more pathetic than a suck. And so far you have lived up the that title very well in this game.

[ July 23, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: kingdom ]

[teal]

Originally posted by DavidG:
Well I think I was #2. And I'm #3 now and losing every big battle with minimal losses to the enemy. I think your point was that berzerker combo was virually unstoppable when combined with maxed aggerssive and defensive (which BTW I do not have) When 4 of the 5 top players in the game (the six being way way way Last) gang up on the berzerker the outcome is pretty much a forgone conclusion. (especially when they are in the corner and the berzerker in the middle) Berzerker is not the all powerfull attribute you make it out to be. Cetainly not in a multiplayer game.

Not exactly. Yes this thread was originally started when I got to thinking about the beserker trait and what *could* be accomplished with it. Which probably had something to do with our game, although I was not specifically thinking about it at the time. You jumped to the not unreasonable conclusion that I was refering to our game and said something about that. I couldn't resist responding with some similar "trash talk". And things veered off from there.

Sure no trait is all powerful in a multiplayer game. My point was that all other things being equal having bezerker with maxed aggressiveness/defense is much better than the alternatives. Things are never equal ("no admiral in his right mind goes out picking a fair fight").

Personally I believe (although I can never know for sure). I would have done exactly the same thing I did in our game if you had any other racial traits/empire set up. You were number 1 in the game and easily walking over your current enemy and seemed to be pursuing a strategy of "divide and conquer" very effectively. One of those four people you were in a long standing war with that started long before I got involved. I actually only approached one other player with a proposal to ally against you (the number one player) and the final player jumped on the bandwagon once they saw the way the wind was blowing. I wasn't going to turn them down....

In short, I think this discussion is getting a little mixed up in the particulars of one game. Which I am happy to discuss. But trying to say anything about Bezerker because of it is a little hard.

[teal]

Originally posted by kingdom:
Personally, TEAL there is nothing more pathetic than a suck. And so far you have lived up the that title very well in this game.

Your right! I definately suck. How else to explain how I have failed to get very far at all against my enemy for 50 turns despite having what he seems to think are overwhelming advantages?!

[DavidG]

Originally posted by teal:

Sure no trait is all powerful in a multiplayer game. My point was that all other things being equal having bezerker with maxed aggressiveness/defense is much better than the alternatives. Things are never equal ("no admiral in his right mind goes out picking a fair fight").

I think this is only true in either a 2 player game or a game that is likely to be short and agressive. In a longer game with more players then I wouldn't pick these stats. Even in a 2 player game I think 125/125 agressive defensive is a little pricey (i usually go 120/120)
I think the berzerker stat is also only really usfull early in the game. later when everyones ships are fully trained with sensors and ECM it has less of an impact. (ie my berzerker status is have little impact of our Last few battles )

[teal]

Actually I mostly agree with you. Especially for multiplayer games where anything that paints a target on your own forehead must be very carefully considered as I have learned when trying to play a religious race. My views on this issue have changed somewhat over time as I have gained more experience.

I also think that training is way more important than Bezerker. This whole thread started with my questions about other "strategies" remember? As SEIV works now Direct Fire weapons are the only thing that really works well. Bezerker and training are correspondingly quite important (although perhaps not all important). Ramming could work well even unmodded if the ramming targets issue was resolved (it stopped your first advance). But as it is now it is too easily countered by your opponent just putting a non-combat ship that is one hull size bigger than your combat vessels into his fleet. I bet this was never really playtested as the designers probably didn't really think people would use ramming that much.

[DavidG]

Yup clearly training is extremely important. I would say the reason one empire in our game is virtually gone is due almost entirely to his ships lack of training. He actually had technically superior ships and in several battles even had more ships but got wipped out because my ships were all trained to the max.
I usually consider my ships incomplete untill trained to 20 percent. Of course this becomes hard to maintain as the pressure builds to get ships to the front.