OT: Carbon Dioxide races -> known vs unknown -> terraforming mars -> is or is not

[Suicide Junkie]

It is done in complex organisms such as humans as an extreme backup (such as during very heavy, prolonged excercise), but it is not effective for very long.

Say what?
I think you mean "during short bursts of heavy activity" such as sprinting and weight lifting.

[Taera]

i repeat myself, if we do not know it exists it doesnt mean it cannot exist. Perharps there are gases we do not know. Perharps there are other ways of extracting energy, say, from splitting the C atoms or whatever. In here im not limiting myself to known science. Yes, i know that what your saying is true, im just not blindly agreeing it is the only truth.

[Fyron]

There are no natural elements that we do not know (unless one of those ~180 proton (or was it 240?) theoretical elements somehow formed in some place in the universe, but it would certainly not be conducive to life). There are only so many ways elements can bond together, and I think every possibility (or at least eveyr possibility that has a remote chance of being useful to any sort of organism) has been seen in nature or made in laboratories.

Splitting atoms releases so much energy that a naturally evolved lifeform would certainly not be able to handle it.

Of course there are other ways of extracting energy from molecules (and atoms, but atomic energy is a bit much for natural organisms). Most of them are either too innefficient to sustain complex organisms, or they are too destructive (such as splitting atoms).

Matter is fundamentally ordered (in some ways). All pieces of matter with X protons share identical properties. They take on variations, such as isotopes (different decay rates, different masses) and ions (different charges). But, their fundamental properties are still essentially the same. Carbon 14 is nearly identical to Carbon 12, with only relatively minor differences. This is why there is no such thing as "different gases" and "different matter". It is the same everywhere in the universe, barring anti-matter, which we do not know if it even exists in nature. Any statements about it beyond the basics of what antimatter is (according to theory, I do not know if any has yet been made in labs) would be pure speculation.

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

quote:

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It is done in complex organisms such as humans as an extreme backup (such as during very heavy, prolonged excercise), but it is not effective for very long.

Say what?
I think you mean "during short bursts of heavy activity" such as sprinting and weight lifting.

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That is what I meant, yes.

[ July 16, 2003, 07:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Taera]

you're speaking of earth's chemistry and physics. You cannot claim that next solar system's physics arent different and that there are no other kinds of particles/elements there. there is a little too much "cannot" here because humans had not explored much outside the Earth. If realy, how can you know we wont find some unique element even deep in mars, in the asteroid belt or on Pluton?

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Any statements about it beyond the basics of what antimatter is (according to theory, I do not know if any has yet been made in labs) would be pure speculation.

Yes, they do make antimatter in labs - often accidentally; when two sufficiently high-energy photons collide, they produce a particle and its matching antiparticle. However, it's made in single particle quantities with the standard Version right next to it, and so (with modern methods), antimatter is both difficult to capture and nearly impossible to produce in any meaningful quantity.

[Taera]

Jack - this fact is what had allowed you to post in this forum meaning, for all of us to exist untill now you never, though, know what they can come up with in the labs...

edit: realized its a complete pointless post... ohwell, ill let it live

[ July 16, 2003, 10:20: Message edited by: Taera ]

[henk brouwer]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The problem is that there are no other substances that can perform all of the roles of oxygen in complex organisms. All organisms on Earth that are more than a simple cell rely on oxygen for all parts of energy generation (not necessarily storage, as for plants, but the molecules they store it in still rely on oxygen). This is because oxygen is a very unique substance that has just the right combination of electronegativity, molecular mass, size, charge, ionization, etc. to work as it does in organisms. Complex alien organisms that do not rely on oxygen could not rely on a single gas; they would have to use several things to fulfill all of the roles of oxygen. And yes, they all need to be fulfilled, because they are too fundamental to be ignored (all relating to energy transmission within the organism and releasing the energy to be used).

Earth life is so dependant on oxygen that some scientists say, as Fyron mentions, that oxygen is the only substance with just the right characteristics for (complex) life. The question is whether this is realy the case or caused by the fact that life has adapted during millions of years of evolution in such a way that it perfectly exploits the characteristics of oxygen, which may make it seem perfect.

If not oxygen but another molecule, that can generate sufficient amounts of energy in biological processes, was used in evolution, then life would have adapted to this situation, and proteins and other processes would have developed that would exploit this resource, making this molecule look "just perfect". Maybe then we would have laughed at the thought of oxygen-dependent life.

[ July 16, 2003, 11:33: Message edited by: henk brouwer ]