SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by deccan:

quote:

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Originally posted by TerranC:
Because TDM is fan made, and was made after SEIV was released. (I assume you mean Vanilla SEIV, not SEIV Gold when you said Stock SEIV.)

Actually, I meant SEIV Gold, as in, why weren't the improved TDM AIs incorporated into stock AIs in official MM patches.

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Maybe noone asked?

I have no idea. This whole idea may not have a chance of getting added as stock. But if it's not done it for sure wont have a chance.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Rollo:
Oh, I didn't realize that we are talking stock AI only here. It wasn't clear from SJ's orginal post:

To be fair you may have understood SJ perfectly. He and I don't neccesarily agree 100% on every point. One of purposes of this discussion is to try and formulate consensus and compromise on issues where people don't agree totally.

Originally posted by Rollo:
Here is another proposal for PPB. Similar to Geo's, but with range reduction. Btw, this is copied from the DevnullMod data files. I consider this quite balanced.

Ok, that's not the first time I have mentioned something that turns out to have been in the Devnull Mod. I really did help you with that mod didn't I? Obviously my memory stinks.

Geoschmo

[ July 24, 2003, 13:07: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Pax]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
After a little digging I think the problem here is not as serious as we thought. The stock Norak AI has a call for combat sensors. This makes sense as you wouldn't want the ships at a severe disadvantage prior to the discovery of the talisman. If we make the talisman a more powerful Version of the combat sensors it will still be used on their designs. It will simply be placed on the ship through a different design call. We won't even have to make a change to the files. The call for the always hit ability will simply be ignored since there will be no component that can satisfy it.

Um. If it's a simple thing like making sure the AI uses both regular combat sensors AND the Talisman ... wouldn't it be possible to simply include updated AI for the stock races, with the balance mod ... ?

That'd work WRT the QR, as well.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Pax:
Um. If it's a simple thing like making sure the AI uses both regular combat sensors AND the Talisman ... wouldn't it be possible to simply include updated AI for the stock races, with the balance mod ... ?

That'd work WRT the QR, as well.

You could, but would you need to? The point of my comment that you quoted is that the stock AI's would work quite well with no changes at all. At least for these two changes.

Geoschmo

[spoon]

Originally posted by Rollo:

Here is another proposal for PPB. Similar to Geo's, but with range reduction. Btw, this is copied from the DevnullMod data files. I consider this quite balanced.

...

Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

With stats like those, why ever choose the Meson BLaster? Compare PPB V to MB VI, adjusted for size:

PPB: 60 55 55 55 50 50
MB: 52 52 52 52 52 52

Adjusted cost is:
PPB: 500 mineral, 300 rad
MB: 450 mineral, 180 rad

The PPB is significantly better at point blank, and about the same at max range. And the PPB skips shields This is a huge advantage in the mid game.

Maybe increase the Rad cost even more for the PPB, or reduce the damage some at level 5. As is, it just out-powers everything else in the mid-game by a very large margin.

[geoschmo]

[quote]Originally posted by spoon:

With stats like those, why ever choose the Meson BLaster? Compare PPB V to MB VI, adjusted for size:

Yes but you are ignoring cost and research in that comparison. Well, maybe not ignoring cost, but discounting it for sure. By increasing the research costs for the PPB as most people are suggesting you allow the MB player to get to the upper level weapon much sooner then the PPB player. Even as it is now the MB player will have MB 2 to 4 before the PPB player even starts researching PPB because of the extra research involved in getting Physics 2. Raising the research costs and lowering the range of the eraly PPB pushes them back into thte late mid game before they start becoming a factor. Which gives the MB more time to be a decent weapon choice.

In retrospect perhaps Malfador should have pushed the energy stream weapons to Physics 2 and the Phased energy weapons back to physics 3. Making a change like that now though would cause some problems with the AI research files for sure.

In the end though yes the PBB catches and passes it on a damage per KT space ratio. I don't think that is neccesarily a bad thing. Even then though it's a more expensive weapon, so the MB player should be able to build more ships then the PPB player. The cost difference doesn't seem much, but multiplied by the number of weapons per ship it can make a significant difference in fleet size.

There are other ways to acchieve balance besides damage/Kt ratio and range.

Geoschmo

[ July 24, 2003, 17:55: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

Yes but you are ignoring cost and research in that comparison. Well, maybe not ignoring cost, but discounting it for sure. By increasing the research costs for the PPB as most people are suggesting you allow the MB player to get to the upper level weapon much sooner then the PPB player.

Much sooner? More like 2-3 turns earlier, which is why I discounted it. Mid game research is generally around 100k, no?