Does Life Exist

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by JurijD:
THE SPINNING SHIP PROBLEM:

2. The obvious solution to this issue is to build a wheel that has a radious more than 100x the normal height of a person (heeh... big, yes... very big) althugh this might be impractical and almost impossible to do now it might be in the future... but sadly its the only solution physics offers us for now...

I think there is a less material intensive method then a giant wheel. Couldn't you build two ships of equal mass, and then tether them together by a long strong cable and rotate them around a common axis?

I could see the "ship" would actually be two ships that are firmly clamped together during launch, complex manuvers and whatnot. But during the bulk of the trip which would be either straight coasting or straight ahead acceleration they could be detached and a cable reeled out of both of them which would allow them to get the neccesary radius for normal gravity within each ship.

There could be one of more counterwieghts crawling back and forth along this cable by means of computer control to balance out any fluctuations if there are any. You could either ahve all the crew on one half and equipment in the other, or the crew could move from one half toe the other when neccesary along the cable.

Geoschmo

[Atrocities]

(not by a pooof as you say)... I have to urge you to reconsider [Smile]

Reconsider what? That we were created instantly or we were not created instantly?

I do not believe we were created instantly by some all knowing being. Nor do I believe that mankind is ruled by this being as religion would have you believe.

DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU ANGER EASILY

I think schizophrenics who heard voices and thought it was the voice of god wrote the bible. The bible was created so that a few could control many. Nothing more nothing less. If you look at the number of innocent people that have been put to death, or have died because of religion then one totally looses faith in it. Look at all the bad things that have been done to people in the name of the lord. I choose to believe that god did not create man, nor does god govern him, but we are ultimately judged by him.

Our deeds, good or bad are regulated by our own guilt and not out of fear of punishment after death. Trust me when your dead, your dead. There is no divine after life, no hell, and no heaven. Do you remember the time before your birth? Death is the same thing really, nothingness.

It is a depressing truth, but I do not expect people to Subscribe to my point of view and I do support the choices people make when it comes to what beliefs system they choose to Subscribe to. I hope they find what it is they are looking for, but I know they won't.

So God will play no part in man ability to explore the stars or meet new life. We are on our own in that endeavor and if God chooses to help out in his or her own way, then great, but for the most part, it’s going to be a long and lonely road to the final frontier.

[ August 09, 2003, 15:38: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[JurijD]

Oh no, you missunderstood my post entirely

You said that you don´te believe us to be the product of evolution from lower hominids (you called them apes and that you also don´t believe we were created by a "pooof" ....

I explained then (in great detail) that we are actually (with the highest degree of probability science can offer us now) the product of evolution starting from "apes" as you called them or hominids as they are correctly termed.

... the quote you put up has nothing to do with what I said... perhaps I didn´t make that sentance clear enough.

I wanted you to reconsider your disbeliefes in the evolution of man... and I tried to name a few arguments to get you satrted on that way. This god bussiness you developed below has nothing to do with my argument and nothing to do with what I said...

Reconsider what? That we were created instantly or we were not created instantly?

To reconsider that we were created instantly or arrived from somewhere else... which is not the case...we most probably are the product of evolution.

[ August 09, 2003, 17:38: Message edited by: JurijD ]

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
If you look at the number of innocent people that have been put to death, or have died because of religion then one totally looses faith in it. Look at all the bad things that have been done to people in the name of the lord.

If one died because of religion (I assume you're talking about Martyrs), wouldn't that generate more faith, seeing how that person gave his own life in order to carry out his beliefs?

And although it is true that religion has generated lots of bad (sectarian violence, intolerance, holy wars, etc.), religion has also generated lots of good (charities, faith healing, hamnitarian aid, etc.).

Everything has a good side and a bad side. Religion is no different.

I'll stop replying to this off topic discussion.

Edit: One more point to make:

You say that religion was created in order for the few to control the many. While that was true in the olden days, it is an out of date statement; The pope does not control the world's vast Catholic population.

[ August 09, 2003, 17:51: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[JurijD]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
There could be one of more counterwieghts crawling back and forth along this cable by means of computer control to balance out any fluctuations if there are any. You could either ahve all the crew on one half and equipment in the other, or the crew could move from one half toe the other when neccesary along the cable.

Yes yes, we see eye to eye... there could be endless variations to the theme. One would of course have to guarantee that the entire composition would always have a center of gravity at the geometric center of the two ships... if for example too much cargo or people were to be moved from one side to the other then the whole constelation would start rotating around a different center that before and the lines would loose tension and the whole thing would fly apart...

[Gozra]

I would like to point out a few things.
First God is a God of law He obeys the RULES just like the rest of us.
Case in point: The parting of the red sea by Moses. If you carefully read in the Bible how that was done you will see that that miriacal(sic)was accomplished by natural means.

Second Blaming God for the terrible acts done in His name by PEOPLE is an error in doctrine. It comes right out in the Bible and says why we are here which is to choose between good and evil.

Third How we got here via evloution or 'Poof' is not the most important issue.What is of importance is have we chose good over evil and have we obeyed God?

And Forth The more knowledge we gain points out how little we know about everything. Theories are constantly changing as we gather new information about the universe around us. I just finished reading article that pointed out that we are not descended from apes but from a similar species.

Also in this thread I noticed people making statements about other star systems as if they were facts when really we don't know for sure. We need to allways be aware that there is more to learn.
Even in a construct such as SEIV there is more to learn every time I play.

I am here. I am aware. There has to be others like me beyond the confines of this solar system.

[ August 09, 2003, 23:07: Message edited by: Gozra ]

[Grandpa Kim]

To get back to the original question, it is my estimation that life is pretty rare in the universe. Not as rare as Atrocities believes but still, mighty rare.

I would not be surprised if we are the only civilization in this galaxy. I would barely raise an eyebrow if we were the only one in our local group of 17 galaxies. But thoughout the whole universe, the absolute number of civilization is reasonably high-- say between 100 and 100,000.

Unfortunately at our state of tech development we can never know for sure.

That brings to mind 2 points that have received little attention: tech level and intelligence level.

Tech Level

All the below assumes approximately equal brain power.

Right now, it is impossible for us to detect another culture as little as 100 years behind us-- a cosmic microsecond-- and it is impossible for them to detect us. This may not be true in as little as 200 years (2 cosmic microseconds). By then we may be able to see planets around another star as easily as we see the earth from the moon now. And this time span is just a tiny blip!

A society only 10,000 years more technologically advanced than us may not be obvious to us at all. Who knows what tech they might have? Whatever you guess is probably wrong. At the same time, they could hide from us easily if they so choose. If not, their antics may not even be noticed by us. Take longer spans and the gulf becomes ludicrous. We are not just "not on the same page", but in entirely different libraries!

Intelligence Level

To define, let me argue that there are various intelligence levels here on planet earth. Microbes are at one level, then perhaps worms, then insects. When we get to vertibrates, intelligence increases by quantum leaps. No doubt we are a quantum leap beyond dogs and horses and even chimps. The questions that are fairly simple to us cannot even be imagined by these creatures. I will paraphrase James Allen Gardner from one of his books.

Imagine a rock on the edge of a cliff. Its easy for us to see that eventually that rock will fall-- an errant gust of wind, an earthquake or simple erosion will push it over the edge. A few seconds observation and thought tells us this but is so unremarkable we hardly think about it. The chimp cannot even form the question let alone reach a conclusion!

It is not hard to imagine a quantum leap beyond our own level. What we can't imagine is the form it will take. In a million years, we will evolve somewhat but a million years is merely a cosmic day. It may not be enough to make that quantum leap. 10 million years may be enough. But imagine a race one billion years more evolved than us! Well, I really can't anything factual about such beings. I can say they may be all around us but we just don't have what it takes to recognize them.

The individuals of our species are very self centered. More than once (hah! many thousands of times) something has been "impossible" and we went ahead and did it anyway, yet we continue this self centered, "today" centered attitude. So, when someone says something is impossible, I just smile knowingly.