OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by Slick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack Simth:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Your assumption: there is a soul.

Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post). But, matter is energy, and energy is matter. All waves of energy have particle-like properties, such as a mass equivalent property, though it is normally infintesimal. All particles of matter have wave-like properties, though those are normally infintesimal (except for very, very fast moving particles, such as electrons, which are particles, but act more like waves than particles). Thoughts are energy on a quantum level, which exist because of the properties of the neural cells in the brain (which are mass). So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value. Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

There have been cases where humans were weighed as they died; it was found that weight was lost at the instant of death. Does this constitute proof that the soul exists? No - but it does qualify as supporting evidence. The existance of the soul is not an unreasonable assumption; it is impossible to disprove at the present time, and there is some supporting evidence for it.

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Actually, I know of this study. It was eventually determined that the loss of weight (a very very small amount) was due to the the Last bit of air escaping from the lungs at death as the pressure equalizes with ambient. Interesting study, though.

Slick.

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It was a study performed in 1909 (IIRC??) and even the author stated that it was a questionable result.
The result varied, between 9-47 grams I belive and on some cases none, and in most cases they didn't measure at the instant of death, I think they managed that in 1 or 2 cases, otherwise it was pre- and post-death measurements.
It is commonly said that it was a loss of 21 grams (again I'm not quite certain) but that was only in one case.
No validating study has been performed.

Will look for the author/study later, this is written from long memory....

[dogscoff]

Jumping back to before this thread got Fyronised...

There's no problem with the heaven/hell model as long as Armaggeddon comes before all the mass runs out.

If you divide the mass of the universe by the mass of a soul, then figure out how fast souls are leaving the universe, you will get an estimate on the latest armaggeddon can be.

Soul-Drain.

There's scope for a brilliant story here, although it would have to be written by someone capable of drawing on religious, mythological, philosophical and scientific sources far more authoritatively than I ever could:

Anyway, here's the idea:
The above model turns out to be true, with all the stuff of the universe being gradually converted into souls and then drained away into the afterlife. Now, the universe is utterly vast (and according to scientists, still expanding), so it's hard to imagine it ever being completely consumed by current levels of soul-drain. However, as populations colonise and grow, the universe, the rate of soul-drain would increase exponentially with it. Eventually, the universe reaches a saturation point where expansion turns into contraction, and the universe starts to shrink. Eventually, with the death of the Last soul, the universe will shrink to a point where it can no longer support life and then- because there's no point to a universe without any souls- disappear, kicking off armageddon. Think of it as a theological big bang/ big crunch

A hundred million years from now we see the Last, dwindling few intelligent beings in the universe, which is absolutely tiny by now and shrinks further with each death. The story is about them as they await their demise and the resultant ragnarok.

Kind of like an anti-One over Zero=-) The Big Brother TV concept also springs to mind: The living are the contestants, the souls of the dead are spectators: You have been evicted from the universe, please leave immediately.

Some interesting points that come to mind:

-Maybe at some point in history some advanced and enlightened civilisation would try to balance their population rates in order to stabilise the universe (or even allow it to grow again). How could they do that though, short of massive genocide campaigns? Maybe this campaign is still in effect in the very Last days.

-Eventually it will come down to the very Last person, all on their own. With no other people and no society to provide tests and temptations, how can he/she live righteously and earn salvation?

-With all the souls in history already on their battlelines in the afterlife, would the fate of the Last few make any difference to the outcome of armageddon? Maybe the numbers are equal and it all hangs on the Last soul..?

-Being utterly alone in a tiny universe would probably drive this Last person completely mad. Assuming suicide isn't a valid option, is it really fair to be put in that position, especially if the outcome of armageddon depends on it? Maybe (s)he wouldn't want to reach heaven just out of spite.

-With all the souls in history already there, would the afterlife be all that different to this one?

-After armageddon and the end of the universe, what comes next? Maybe you get some kind of soul-singularity that reaches critical mass and triggers the next big bang...

There you go, fantastic story or what? if anyone thinks they can write this, I look forward to reading it. When it becomes an international best-seller though, just remember to throw me some change from the window of your speeding limo...

[dogscoff]

Reconcile the fact that space and time exist but are not made up of energy or matter.

Well, I would argue that space and time are simply abstract terms used as "containers" for matter and energy. They are abstracts defined by the matter and energy that occupy them, and could not exist without them.

Put it this way: There is no such thing as a "forest"- it's an abstract- an entirely human invention. Accepting for argument's sake that there is such a thing as a tree, just giving a bunch of trees the name “forest” does not necessarily mean that there is such a thing as a forest. It's just a container for a bunch of trees.

Of course you can (quite rightly) argue the same thing for the whole of language being a metaphor , (and therefore that there is no "tree" either) but I think when you are talking about physical fundamentals like matter and energy you can get around this and say with confidence that matter and energy are about the only things that definitely do exist whether you have a name for them or not. Space and time are just terms we use to contain them.

BTW, spoons and sporks are an entirely different question.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Will:
I think we all need to face the facts here... Fyron is really a rather sophisticated Eliza program that was unleashed on an unsuspecting internet. Which is why threads he gets involved in never end unless they are shut down or everyone else stops posting

This is a fascinating hypothesis, and one that would explain a lot actually.

But it raises an interesting question. If Fyron exsists only as a computer program, does Fyron have mass?

[dogscoff]

If Fyron exsists only as a computer program, does Fyron have mass

Only if he's catholic.

[Loser]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
Only if he's catholic.

My guess would be no. If we're going to do a pool, I call dibs on the intersection of the Non-Practicing column with the Unitarian row. Oh yeah and Perl, definitely Perl.

[edit: post 666... for whatever that's worth.]

[ August 18, 2003, 15:16: Message edited by: Loser ]

[geoschmo]

Actually, kidding of Fyron aside, the idea of a computer program is an interesting perspective on the whole "Does a soul have mass" question. I don't think a computer program could be defined as having mass while it's stored in memory. The silicon chip or magnetic tape has the same mass and number of electrons regardless. It's just that the little bits are in different positions depending on if they are ones or zeros.

I suppose the real question though is whether the soul has mass outside of the body though. Heaven and hell could be massive storage banks, the same as a human body but larger, that don't actually change their mass when souls enter or leave. Just rearange some bits to represent the loading and unloading of the soul/program.

But that brings up other questions.

How does the soul get from the body to the eternal storage archive? Is it like radio waves? Do radio waves have mass?

Can the number of souls exceeds the storage capacity of either heavan or hell? And if so, what happens to the overflow?

Can souls be zip compressed?

Can you repartition heavan?

Should I take the red pill, or the blue one.

[ August 18, 2003, 15:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]