Torpedo question

[DeadDireWolf]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The biggest problem is weapon scale mounts that were introduced in SE4. There were no mounts in SE3. Components just took one hit to be destroyed, and weapons did damages on scales of 3, 5, or occasionally 10. All of this was basically multiplied by 10 in the conVersion to SE4, with some tweaking and some new weapons. BUT, SE3 torpedos had nice to hit bonuses. SE4 torpedos do not. Also, a big advantage of SE3 torpedos was that they could penetrate stuff like emmissive armor (and crystalline in SE4) better because they did more damage per shot. But, with the massive scale mount bonuses in SE4, this advantage is gone, because even a lowly DUC V can penetrate emmissive armor easily (and CA on smaller-medium ships) with a large or heavy mount.

Far out. Nobody has addressed this issue in SEIV? Odd, if so. The game has been out for a while and I would have thought someone would have tried to balance the torpedo.

[Fyron]

Not everyone agrees that it is not balanced... and there is no consensus on how to balance it, so it remains. I think there was one change to it in the early days of SE4 though (a patch). There was also one to beef up PPBs, cause apparently they were too weak before.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Whoever moves into range first gets to fire first. With same ranged weapons (such as APB VII or so and whatever level of Torpedo hits range 8 (max range of all non-missile weapons)), it is the faster ships. With same speed and range, it is a crap shoot.

Haven't played unmodded in a while, Fryon?

Torps max out at range 6, as do several other DF weapons in the unmodded game (some also max at 5).

PvK

[PvK]

Too much silly speculation floating around - some people need to run some solid tests to see if torps are doing anything weird.

There are plenty of mods which change torpedo stats. I know beefed them up quite a bit in Proportions mod.

First strike is one way for torps to have an advantage. There are several other risk factors that can tip the scales of a battle. If the ships start out in range of each other, then first shot is determined by who was stationary rather than moving to enter the combat, or failing that, a coin flip (in Gold; pre-Gold, it was by player number...).

Just in general though, doing more damage in the first exchange can sometimes tip the scales, because a hit on ECM or Sensors can effectively take a ship out of action, etc.

Another way is to give your ships "Max Firing Range" strategy, and then to give them only weapons with the same reload time, which is greater than 1. The result is that the ships will fire and then move away for a turn or two, which can result in avoiding getting hit by the enemy, or in partly damaged ships escaping destruction, or getting enemies with "target most damaged" to try to fire at them at excessive range (thus, missing, while full-strength ships are closer). If this succeeds (no guarantee, with the dodgy tac AI), then the torp ships may succeed in firing (or, firing and hitting) as often as their opponents do.

Against enemies with range-8 weapons especially (usually APB), range-6 weapons can also have an advantage if both sides have full-strength ECM and defensive-bonus armor, because it will be hard for either to hit at range-8, and +20% easier at range 6. Because SE4 to-hit is based on simplistic addition rather than multiplication (like real-universe probability), this can be much more than a 20% advantage, since if the chance to-hit is say, 20% at range 8, at range 6, the chance would be 40%, or twice as likely.

PvK

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Whoever moves into range first gets to fire first. With same ranged weapons (such as APB VII or so and whatever level of Torpedo hits range 8 (max range of all non-missile weapons)), it is the faster ships. With same speed and range, it is a crap shoot.

Haven't played unmodded in a while, Fryon?

Torps max out at range 6, as do several other DF weapons in the unmodded game (some also max at 5).

PvK

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Well that just makes APBs even more powerful.

Against enemies with range-8 weapons especially (usually APB), range-6 weapons can also have an advantage if both sides have full-strength ECM and defensive-bonus armor, because it will be hard for either to hit at range-8, and +20% easier at range 6. Because SE4 to-hit is based on simplistic addition rather than multiplication (like real-universe probability), this can be much more than a 20% advantage, since if the chance to-hit is say, 20% at range 8, at range 6, the chance would be 40%, or twice as likely

The problem with that is that in most battles, there are a lot of ships, and the range 8 weapons just allow ships in the back to fire, while the bulk of the ships are still up at close ranges (unless you use max range for some odd reason). Optimal range usually makes your ships move in close to fire anyways (especially with high enemy ECM values). They will fire and move away if they start close. Or just sit there if they are crowded by huge fleets. Those ships in the back don't hit often, but they hit more often than the enemey's rear ships that can't even attempt to fire. Fleet stacking is not to be underestimated.

[ November 11, 2003, 01:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[PvK]

Your points about thickly-stacked masses of ships, and second and third ranks being able to fire, are good ones. It depends on the numbers of ships involved, fire tactics used, actual ship positions, speeds, and to-hit mods on both sides. However I have seen end-game battles and simulator situations where range-six weapons would do better than range-eight weapons, at least if the range-eight weapons were on Max Weapon Range strategy. It was pretty clear in the replays this was because they were missing much more at range 7-8 than their opponents were at range 6. If the range-8's are on Point Blank, Short, or maybe even Optimal, though, and Target Nearest, then they shouldn't be firing at 7-8 when they could fire at 6. However, unless you have a skill disadvantage, often the Max Weapon Range strat will beat the more agressive strats, although again it depends on a lot of other factors.

PvK

[Fyron]

That is why you don't use max range unless you are using missiles, have a huge tech advantage over the enemy, have talismans, or are a masochist. Optimal usually works well for me.