Military Buffs I need your help.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

other peoples brutality's do not excuse retalitory brutalities. and more reason is needed out of you than simply dissmissing apposing points.

[AssHat]

Gryphin -

npcB was just yankin' my chain with the baby thing. And it is a lame comeback.

I was not attacking npcB.

Edit: I am not dismissing viewpoints, I am making specific points about why those viewpoints are lacking factual evidence.

[ December 13, 2003, 23:48: Message edited by: AssHat ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

i wasn't yanking your chain, i was seeking clarification. your statements have sounded incredibly bloodthirsty.

[AssHat]

Hey you're the one with the vampire sig

[CNCRaymond]

Originally posted by rextorres:
I don't know if the US was wrong or not in dropping the bomb (frankly the fire bombings sound more horrific based on accounts I've read) - but a lot of people - even a couple on this forum have implied that the bombs were dropped for some altruistic reasons.

Really, and who are these people? From what I read, most of the people here say that war was war, and they make no excuses for what the US did given the fact that in that day and age, the ends did justify the means. Fire bombing civilian targets, why the hell not, if they could have done it to use, they would have. But as history would have it, we were the ones to pull it off. Was that the right thing to do by today’s standards, sure, why not, by the standards of then, oh hell yes. People die in war Rex, that is the horror of it. It is a crying shame, but again, it was war and even now when we look back on our history through the optics of revisionism, it was still war and no one can deny that. I lost family in that war as did a great many people, and we all know how horrible war can be. But to look back on it now and say that it was done out of hatred alone is utterly wrong.

The truth is those cities were fire bombed mainly because they were made out of wood and paper and were industrial centers. They did not deliberately target civilians although they knew that the fires would spread. To the military leaders of that time, it was the best tactical way to subdue and demoralize the population of Japan. Break their will to fight and soften them up for an invasion.

In reality the US was fire bombing civilians already and dropped the bomb on a civilian target, probably dropped the bomb out of revenge (as your posting and some others on the board highlights), for strategic leverage after the war, and based on what some Japanese documents suggest could have gotten a surrender without the need to drop the bombs.

Or as you point out, it was just pay back for the war right? They dropped those bombs because they wanted revenge. The sad truth is simply that in war miscommunications between enemies is a common place occurrence. The Japanese culture was different from that of our own and that too played a part in what happened. Simply we did not know, or did not understand that they were considering surrender.

The horror of war can not be ignored, nor can it be excused even after 50 years. Horrible things happen in war Rex, things that should be considered war crimes that are not, and things that should never have happened did happen. Its in the past now, and all we can do is live with the guilt of what happened.

Some people feel uncomfortable with this "revisionist" history because it doesn't show the US in the best light and in today's Jingoistic climate if your not 100% pro US your unpatriotic . . . I guess if it lets them sleep better at night good for them.

I have to disagree with this assessment of your assumption on what people think. No where in any of the threads of this topic have I read where any one becomes uncomfortable with your comments about history. You have your view, and they have theirs. The only one I have seen get upset about any thing has been you Rex. In fact, I think, and forgive me for not being politically correct here, that you enjoy the argument and are not willing to be humble and professional enough to conduct yourself with the professionalism that is this board.

Frankly rex, I think much of what you have said is spot on, but your delivery of it has been deliberately hostile with the intent to provoke animosity

[ December 14, 2003, 00:33: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

[rextorres]

Hmmm . . . since I wasn't alive and to my knowledge none of my relatives died because of it . . . I guess I don't feel as strongly as some people seem to about that war.

Still, I know what I have read, and it enlightening that there is still so much vitriol towards the Japanese and so much self-righteousness about A-bombing a civilian target even after 50 years. And I guess that's what's upsetting.

Anyway, if we had lost the war fire bombing and A-bombing cities probably would have been a war crime. Sure sometimes a country has to commit an evil act for self-preservation but it doesn't make it a good act; it's still an evil act. In my opinion fire bombing or A-bombing a city with civilians is an evil act even if it was against the JAPS.

I think President Truman captures how many felt about "the beasts" as he says -

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistle...mall/mb13a.htm

Sure he is disturbed BUT they deserved it.

[ December 14, 2003, 01:18: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[CNCRaymond]

I agree with you Rex, I wish they could have found another way than to have dropped those bombs, I really do.

The motivations back then were skewed by the war, and in war we spend a lot of time making our enemies evil. It is easier to kill a thing, than it is a man. This kind of thing dates back to the dawn of time, and I feel it will go on long after we are gone.

I often wonder how we would all respond to a world war situation if one occured now. If say China bombed Seattle or New York, how we would view them? Or how they would view us when we retalated.

I am a believe that a third world war will come, a war not over politics, but a war over resources. It will be a bloody and unholy war unlike any war we have ever seen before. Billions will die, and in the end, those who survive it will have nothing left to fight with say sticks and stones.

You put 5 people on an island with enough food to Last 50 days. It won't take long for on or two of them to figure out that if s/he bumps off the others, that 50 days of food will Last 250.