OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING

[Growltigger]

Gravey101, I agree with you totally, I cannot imagine anything in the book without reverting to the images used in the film EXCEPT for the trolls.

Dunno why, but I still have the trolls in my head as kind of like big orcs, rather than the doughboy things pictured in the movie.

Geo, I guess Gondor is kind of round Rome/Greece (certainly the style of buildings used in the movie look like a cross between renaissance and classical architecture).

Dwarfs? not Holland, no mountains (or hills for that matter) unless that was your joke - more like Norway I feel. You can imagine Gimli doing the Swedish chef impression with his axe

[Fyron]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
i would argue that he is the most powerfull being on middle earth; the demi-gods are all on that island which isn't part of middle earth any more. in the FOTR, he said that if he kept the ring, all the other lands would fall to darkness, then his. since he appears to be totally unnafected by the ring, that would mean he wouldn't use it even if it didn't corrupt him, and the most powerfull would tend to get conquered Last.

that logic might not hold if he could use it without being corrupted and would use it to hold them off at the Last.

Being uncorruptable and being powerful are two different things. I don't think he could have used the ring at all. His fate was not intertwined with it, which is what makes him not subject to its influence.

Also, you are forgetting that the Maiar are also demi-gods, though lesser demi-gods. Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

[ January 08, 2004, 17:39: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

Dunno why, but I still have the trolls in my head as kind of like big orcs, rather than the doughboy things pictured in the movie.

They were described in the books very similarly to how they appear in the movies.

Funny thing is that I recall reading that the Trolls were created from captured Ents corrupted by Morgoth/Melkor.

[Loser]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

Wasn't the Balrog, as well?

[Baron Munchausen]

Comparisons of Middle-earth geography and history to historical earth are fascinating.

Mountain encircled Mordor actually resembles Persia (Iran) if you look at a relief map. And Tolkien himself compared Gondor to 'Byzantium' -- the Byzantine Empire which had a long history of constant strife with Persia, and finally fell to the Ottoman Turks. Compare the Minas Ithil / Ostgiliath / Minas Anor complex to Constantinople on both sides of the straits of Bosporus. The Bosporus straits aren't much wider than a river, after all. And when Mohammed II attacked Constantinople for the final time he had a new-fangled weapon, the cannon, which he used to batter holes in the walls. Compare to the bLasting of the Rammas Echor with (apparently) gunpowder by the attacking army of Mordor. The battle for Minas Tirith might be considered a replay of the fall of Constantinople.

But there are more 'patterns' to be matched. The shape of the lands protected behind the Anduin might be compared to Britain itself, with Minas Tirith down in the southeast corner being 'London' and Anduin being the English Channel. Then the invading army or Mordor looks like the forces of William the Conqueror. Eomer borrows from Talifer and tosses his sword in the air (and catches it!) while singing when he realizes that the black ships are full of good guys. So the battle for Minas Tirith also borrows from the Battle of Hastings. (And it says somewhere in Tolkien's 'official' biography that he resented the 1066 Conquest very personally, so you can see a sort of 'wish fulfillment' in his replay turning out differently.)

There are more miscellaneous connections. If Rivendell is at approximately the same lattitude as Oxford, as Tolkien says, then 'Mirkwood' is a pretty good fit for the Black Forest in Germany. And Tolkien himself refers to Venice as 'Pelargir' in the Letters, both are coastal cities with canals. There are too many connections to say that any one fit works well enough to be an 'allegory' or deliberate depiction. He just borrowed extensively from real history to build his imaginary history, though he also expresses regret somewhere or other that he had established the geography of Middle-earth too well to make it fit to Europe when he realized that would have been a good idea.

[ January 08, 2004, 21:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Loser:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

Wasn't the Balrog, as well?

---

Yes, as is Radagast, who does not appear in the movies.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Also, you are forgetting that the Maiar are also demi-gods, though lesser demi-gods. Sauron, Gandalph and Sauruman are all Maiar.

i think 'angels' would be a better fit. and he still would have been conquered Last, so that point stands.