OT:splendid WWII movie you'll never see:(

[oleg]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
oleg why bother

i will purchase this on dvd if i can.

and you will keep an eye out for me.

Perhaps you could help me with some other russian war movies.

I have seen a few over the years.

But I have no clue of what the titles were

actually, it is a tough task for me too
There are many - sometimes quite good but still "propaganda" movies and it is not easy to fish honest stuff. Check out stuff like "belorussky voksal", "oni srazhalis za rodinu", "a zori zdes tihii",
Or if you get it, teleserial "seventeen moments of spring"

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by oleg:
Oh, Thermo, another historical fact that should surely hurt your stand that US won WWII fighting both Germany and USSR
- Tirpiz was forced to to return to its base after Soviet K-21 launched 4 torpedoes on it. Did it score ? - may be not, but Tirpitz returned to the base immediatly and never sailed again. But HM Admerals were so puked after Bismark affair that they decided to sacriface the whole convoy and save their "warships" - I put asterisk deliberatly because those HHS should lose that privelege endowned since Lord Nelson

Bloody Shame.

Well, let’s not argue, let’s call it a debate

To your first point, how would four destroyers have made a difference? The corvettes were little more than MTB’s without the torpedoes, and I doubt they could have survived long enough to even ram the Terpitz. And where was the Soviet Navy? IMHO, any allied ship that operated east of the North Cape in the summer of 42 did so at great risk. The western fleets were still sailing ships that were fitted out before airpower had advanced to the point of being accepted as a threat to war ships. They were ill equipped to fight off land based air in 1942.

To the second point, how is it that the USSR was in a position that one convoy of supplies would have made such a difference. And let’s face facts, the Soviet field armies that drove the Nazi bastards back to Berlin consumed more tonnage a week than was loaded on PQ 17. So to say that it would have made more than a temporary tactical difference would need a lot of supporting evidence.

Now before I say anything more, let me say that my animosity is directed at the Soviet government in general and at Stalin in this particular moment in history. The Russian people that I know personally are fine people. And I hold no animosity towards the people of Russia. But there are some facts that bring great weight to this debate.

Germany fielded the most skilled military organization that the world had ever known at the beginning of WW 2. Their understanding of maneuver exceeded that of any army in the world. This is due in great part to their understanding of why they failed in WW 1. And they were under the control of one of the four most evil Groups of men in modern history. The army of the USSR was something different. Its problems stem from the fact that it was controlled by one of the four most evil men of modern history. While Hitler and the Nazi’s killed more people in the years of Nazi rule, Stalin’s government killed many more, but over a longer period of time.

Also, I seem to recall that Hitler had a willing partner when he divided up Poland. This seems to be much ignored when WW 2 is debated. The USSR was a willing partner in the single event that triggered WW 2.

With Stalin’s track record up to that point, he is lucky that the west didn’t see the eastern front as a way of killing two birds with one stone. Aiding both sides just enough to ensure that they both shot their bolts.

And one more thing. What is this Great Patriotic War stuff? And what do the old Soviets call the invasion of Poland?

[ February 14, 2004, 01:32: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

[se5a]

nice shot of the catalina...

[oleg]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
...And one more thing. What is this Great Patriotic War stuff? And what do the old Soviets call the invasion of Poland?...

Good post, Thermo. It will take me some time to reply in parts

But first, about Great Patriotic War. I think you read the Mein Kumpf and The Directive Barborosa. Then you should realise that the prime outcome of Hitler' victory would be the total anihilation of slavic people. Holocust was a tradegy but it could a small footnote compared to ~300 milions of dead Russians, Ukranians, Belorusians, etc. - all "inferior" races. So it was indeed The Great Patriotic War - the war for the very survivor of all us. I don't think people in the Weast, espicialy in US, who was practically untouched by WWII horrors appreciate how much it hurts us still... I was born many years after WWII and still my most vivid memories are my Family celebrations of May 9 and November 7 ,with all grownups tosting for "never ever another war"

So every time I read western media propoganda about Russian "aggression" I want to laugh and cry at the same time. What a nonsense ! Whatever we ever wanted is a secure peace. Hard to achive with Americam Imperialists building bases all around borders and dictating their will everywhere.

As to Stalin - I dispise him. He was an ars..l who killed millions and still failed to protect the country. He was a paranoic idiot directly responsible to the horrors of 41-42.

If only party listen to the lasr Lenin; letters in 1922 ...

[ February 14, 2004, 02:43: Message edited by: oleg ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
... To your first point, how would four destroyers have made a difference? The corvettes were little more than MTB’s without the torpedoes, and I doubt they could have survived long enough to even ram the Terpitz...

Frankly, i don't know. i don't know whether Tirpitz will indeed attack the convoy. But I am very sure that if escorts stay with convoy, they would protect merchant ships from Luftwaffe and Kringsmarine. There would be no "Bloody Sunday of July 5", with all cruisers and destroyers around.

History does not know "if", but in my book, Royal Navy behaved like cowards. They left helpless concorts to the mercy of mercyless foe. It is like escorting a girl to the dark alley and then runing away at the first suspitios sound in the bushes.

Rightly or wrongly but - I red once again the history of malta convoys and decided not to smear the reputation of the honorable institution on the basis of action of few scoundrels.

[ February 14, 2004, 03:05: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

In Seattle anyway, we have a few theatres which do show foreign films, we have an annual international film festival, and of course there are video stores (Scarecrow is good). I realize that foreign pickings are often woefully slim, while there's abundant Hollydreck, but I thought maybe you meant something else.

PvK

[Taz-in-Space]

I for one would like to see more foreign films in US cinemas. I'm sure that there are many fine films that are missed by both sides.

As to the conduct of the WWII militaries and if they could have done better, sure they could have. BUT THAT IS HINDSIGHT!

What was done by ALL sides during that awful mess was incredible.

Here in the US, few know what the Russian people had to endure. The statistics I saw were amazing to me many years ago when I studied it.

I remember reading that the losses of men on the 'Eastern Front' were:
20 Million Russians and 2.5 Million Germans.
An amazing 8-1 ratio! This is over the whole war.
Think of what the ratio had to be at the start.
And the Germans LOST...

How did the Russians do it? Yes, they had help; but largely they DID fight with their own equipment. One place I wouldn't have liked to be was in the Russian infantry during 1941-1943.

IMO not enough note was made about the Eastern Front land war in the West. Just as I'm sure not much notice is shown in USSR about the Bombing campaign waged in the West.

You tend to ignore what you haven't experianced.
Simple human nature...