OT: Election 2004

[Randallw]

Originally posted by Lord Chane:
Yes, but there's a huge difference between the present situation and the situation in Europe after WW-I that lead to Hitler's coming to power. The Allies then had the power of law on their side in the form of the Treaty of Versaille (sp?).

The Treaty of Versailles could be said to have created more problems than it finished. It completely blamed the Germans for the war even though really Austria could be said to have started it. It punished the Germans severely, such as taking away a lot of its territory, it forced them to pay massive reperations and the germans did not have a say in what would happen. Basically the allies got so carried away with their victory they decided to make the Germans pay. I apologise that I can't find my textbook with the actual cartoon, but there exists an editorial cartoon drawn shortly after the Treaty where the writers of the treaty, such as the prime ministers of the UK and France and the president of the US are walking out of the hall and there is a small child labelled the "class of 39" weeping to one side of the door. The Prime minister of the UK says "can I hear crying?". Even in 1919 people knew the treaty was going to cause trouble and this is 10 years before anyone outside of Germany had heard of Hitler. If anything Hitler was allowed to get away with his demands because allied governments knew they had been too harsh and the German people deserved things back.

[Renegade 13]

What was levied against Germany was definitely excessive. It hurt the pride of the German people, and a proud people do not like to be helpless. I mean, they weren't even supposed to have an army!! That was definitly a large part of the cause of WWII but not all by any means. Hitler was a bloodthirsty, racist person, and I think he would have gone on to cause trouble no matter what the situation. The situation in Germany merely provided the ideal stage for Hitler to espouse his crazy ideas to a public ripe for some revenge against their oppressers.

[dogscoff]

However what is done is done. Time to move forward and think about the future.

No! I get really angry when i hear this. The truth about this war needs to come out, and the guilty need to be punished. Bush and Blair are appealing to the short attention-spans of their populations to try to avoid the repercussions of their illegal war- "Oh, the Iraq war, that was so Last year. Let's talk about something else now." How would it be if Nixon had dragged out the Watergate investigations for a year and then said "are you still talking about Watergate? What is done is done. Aren't you bored of that yet? Here, look at this bright shiny thing over here! Look! Look!"

I won't "move forward" until I see B&B in front of some kind of trial or hearing to establish the truth, and if they are found to be guilty of
deceiving their people and causing thousands of deaths under false pretexts and for dubious motivations, they should be kicked out of office at the very least, or even locked up.

[ March 26, 2004, 08:40: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[tesco samoa]

Renegade 13. by the def'n of evil in this thread.

USA is evil . The war of ideology / economy cost millions of peoples lives, proped up dictators, overthrown popular movements.

Look at the actions over the Last 50 years.

P.S. Hitler was the lesser of the two evils in the 30's and 40's. He just moved first and the third french-german war was under way under 100 years.

[Lord Chane]

Originally posted by Randallw:
The Treaty of Versailles could be said to have created more problems than it finished. It completely blamed the Germans for the war even though really Austria could be said to have started it. It punished the Germans severely, such as taking away a lot of its territory, it forced them to pay massive reperations and the germans did not have a say in what would happen. Basically the allies got so carried away with their victory they decided to make the Germans pay. I apologise that I can't find my textbook with the actual cartoon, but there exists an editorial cartoon drawn shortly after the Treaty where the writers of the treaty, such as the prime ministers of the UK and France and the president of the US are walking out of the hall and there is a small child labelled the "class of 39" weeping to one side of the door. The Prime minister of the UK says "can I hear crying?". Even in 1919 people knew the treaty was going to cause trouble and this is 10 years before anyone outside of Germany had heard of Hitler. If anything Hitler was allowed to get away with his demands because allied governments knew they had been too harsh and the German people deserved things back. [/QB]

You're absolutely correct in your analysis. I wasn't supporting the treaty or saying that it was a good thing. My point was that good or bad the treaty was a legal document and when Hitler decided to break it the allies did have the force of law on their side had they elected to enforce it. Yes, the treaty was a mistake and fortunately we learned from it and we didn't repeat the mistake at the end of WW-II.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Renegade 13. by the def'n of evil in this thread.

USA is evil . The war of ideology / economy cost millions of peoples lives, proped up dictators, overthrown popular movements.

Look at the actions over the Last 50 years.

P.S. Hitler was the lesser of the two evils in the 30's and 40's. He just moved first and the third french-german war was under way under 100 years.

Yeah I guess you're right Tesco. The word 'evil' is such an ambiguous term, it means different things to different people. And that's one thing that Bush has done that's really made me mad. He's used the word "evil" to describe anyone who opposes him and his agenda. And yes, some of them undoubtedly are evil. But using the term to blanket those who don't agree with you is just wrong.

[Roanon]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
USA is evil.

A country or nation cannot be "evil". Whatever this is. Peoples may be, leaders may be, but I don't think you can say USA itself is evil or that every US citizen is evil.

I support you if you say that Bush is a money-greedy warmonger, but this is something totally different. And just my personal opinion, not that I want to start a discussion here.