OT: Free speech?

[Randallw]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Its always about the Jews... what about the dozens of other instances of genocide in the 20th century? For example, millions of Armenians were slaughtered sometime around 1920 or so... the Jews are nothing special or unique.

At risk of being criticised, I have always assumed its because there are so many powerful jewish people in the developed world. They make sure no one forgets. I don't think there are many famous Armenians (apart from Cher ) reminding people.

[dogscoff]

I don't think there are many famous Armenians (apart from Cher ) reminding people.

Well I never knew that. I always assumed she was Jewish...

Something else about the holocaust that many people don't realise is that Hitler also sent disabled people, the mentally ill and a whole bunch of ethnic Groups to the gas chambers. Although the jewish population suffered most in terms of sheer numbers of people killed, the romany gypsies were damn near exterminated altogether. (there were less of them to start with.)

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by JayBdey:
America committed atrocities too.

America dropped incendiary bombs on the German ...

Yet no kids in America learn about this in school, and you won’t see it on the history channel.

I agree you. I have an impression most Americans see the world a little bit different as e.g. most of the "Old-Europeans". But what is the cause of this interesting point of view?

My opinion is: the cause is the history of a country and its representation in the historical education in the scools. I know it from Germany: Here is the main focus of history in scool WWII and the Genocide on Jews. As a result an german kid has often an impression to be guilty in things happen over 60 yeas ago. I don't beleave in "Erbschuld" (is an concept that faults of parents are also the faults of their children). As result of this scool indoctrination most germans have an abcence of patriotism. To say "I'm proud to be a german" can stamp you as an radical nationalist.

I think USA have an inverted problem. It's a kind of fragmented Identity. A nation that defends "human rights", "freedom of speech" and "democracy" all over the world MUST NOT break this rules so open and so often (also in own country) because of nobody can punish this country for such delicts.

But problems of this kind are solvable over few years. Many germans owe a new kind of "patriotism" to Rumsfeld. He gives them an alternative identification. Not as "forever guilty german" but as "peace loving old-european" .

Sorry for my bad English

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

Something else about the holocaust that many people don't realise is that Hitler also sent disabled people, ... [/QB]

Hitler was not only one. Stalin has killed in the same time many more people. But russian archives are not so exact as german archives are.

[Randallw]

Stalin murdered many more of his own people* than Hitler yet Hitler is considered worse. Perhaps it was because under Stalin people were shipped off to Siberia where they just happened to die, or people just happened to die because of the communists caring more about their plan than the starving Ukrainian peasants. The soviets were just less exact in what they did. The Nazi efforts were planned to specifically kill people. There is a joke that in Nazi Germany at least the trains ran on time, but what is important is what the trains were doing. The Germans get criticised more, either rightly or wrongly, because they were more specific and planned things to the Last detail. It may not be so much that people were killed but that the one regime had a Mission statement and list of goals etc (almost like modern business) Truely History is written by the victor.

*strangely enough neither Stalin or Hitler was actually from the country he ran.

[ May 19, 2004, 11:53: Message edited by: Randallw ]

[Grauzone]

Originally posted by Randallw:
Stalin murdered many more of his own people* than Hitler yet Hitler is considered worse... Truely History is written by the victor.

*strangely enough neither Stalin or Hitler was actually from the country he ran.

I think you are right. It is the precicion and efficiency that makes germans to the worst criminals in this time (and the fact that they loose the conflict). But i don't understand why and how my generation of german adults is responsible for this crime. To criticise Israelian politics brings you automaticaly near to the position of Antisemitism, even though many of israelian doings are not so far from what Stalin has do with ethnical minorities in russia. And why do the USA protect this behaviour?

[Randallw]

Blaming Germans today for what past generations did is as stupid as antisemitism blaming jews for what their ancient ancestors might have once done.