Making mods for Dominions II. [Basic editing/modding discussion.]

[Richard]

Okay guys time out.

Just because some folks mod the game doesn't mean it will be ruined. Most people play SE:IV plain vanilla and it has a thriving community. But if some folks want to tinker, why the friction. Letting people have it their way is what grows a community, not threatens it.

[MythicalMino]

I don't know....SE4's modding....some of the mods, i really like....

Dominions...I doubt I would ever really mess with any mods for it, cause the game itself is just so much what I have looked for in a fantasy tbs game.

Having said that, I don't think modding will ruin it...but, many of you are all pissed at Nerfix, calling him names, cause he doesn't want mods, and he may have called you names...

He doesn't want mods....you do....does that make you better? more superior? does that make him better? more superior? no...but I will say this, Nerfix has studied this game for quite some time...you can't trash that....illwinter respects him for his hard work and dedication to the game...you cannot trash that....

I think it shows your own foolishness to bash him...you are pointing out your own determination for modding, just as he is for no modding....

stupid arguement really....

(i do think that modding WILL add to the ppl wanting to buy the game. that could be a good thing, or a bad thing...will ppl want to buy the game for the game itself, or just so they can "change" things? sure sells are good....but what at what expense to the original "work of art"...ALSO, if Dominions is made primarily for MP, modding WILL make MP games a bit more tougher to play....think about it....)

[ September 28, 2003, 17:54: Message edited by: cpbeller ]

[Pocus]

I disagree with the fact that modding can be an annoyance, because you find more often than not crappy mods.
Lets take the Paradox serie of game, starting with Europa Universalis, ending with Heart of Iron. There is only a few mods available, which asks for much work from several fans. If you are a bit serious, before trying a mod, you goes to the modding forum, and at least browse what is here. For exemple in HoI there is mainly 2 mods, which are Nighty Road to war, and Steel CORE mod. Within some minutes you should know which one fit you the best (I prefer Core btw!).

Or goes to the SE IV forum, to speak a bit about a Shrapnel game . You'll find plenty of mod, AST, Proportion Mod, TDM mod, etc. This is really easy to get the one which will please you. For the content, reading a readme, or browsing the forum is sufficient. For the quality, browse again the forum, and you will rapidly see if the fans talk happily of the mod.

So ... the ones which are saying that mods are a pain in the rear because you always get crappy things ought to be a bit more involved in a the fan's community of the game they are playing, and they will soon knows how the game evolves, and by whom.

my 0.02 euros.

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by Richard:
Okay guys time out.

Just because some folks mod the game doesn't mean it will be ruined. Most people play SE:IV plain vanilla and it has a thriving community. But if some folks want to tinker, why the friction. Letting people have it their way is what grows a community, not threatens it.

Amen to that.

Lads, lets make it simple. Some of you do not like modding. You wont download mods.
Some of us like modding. We will download mods, and play with them. Propably we will have long and nice conversations about them.
I dont think that anyone disrespect Nerfix. However his comments are very childish and ignorant. That is not very good.

On a final note: I think that mods are adding huge value to any games, just check out the moddable games and their communities...That is the best proof, that why modding is good.

[ September 28, 2003, 20:46: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[Aristoteles]

cpbeller - Nerfix doesn't doing anything, he is asking questions, and making some idiotic comments. He totally sounds like an ignorant kid, if you ask me. (I think many of you have noticed this.)
Personally I don't care, but he posted too much BS here. Enough is enough you know.
The problem is that he doesn't had a single valid point in this case, just for example..making absolutely no sense to me.
He made a fansite, so what? I can make a site like that in 1 hour. We all love this game, he cannot post BS without consequences.

[ September 28, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

[Mortifer]

Ok no more flaming please.
This thread is about suggestions and stuff. I think that we passed the 'I like the idea of modding and you dont' case....

If any of you have suggestions, that what modding tools we will need, just post them.
However I think that everyone will agree that first of all we need the unit/nation/pretender modding tool, or a proper database editor.

[Bard of Prey]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
What kinds of modding tools do you prefer (in order of importance). We can make a poll when we have a number of suggestions.

Tools for remaking nations seems popular and is probably not too difficult to implement.

Adding monsters is already possible, but only in scearios. Probably more interesting if combined with a nationmodder.

Other mods such as unit editing is more difficult to implement.

What good mods are there in other games. We will need to delve into this and might need some guidance.

All of what you're thinking of so far sounds good. IMHO, the most important thing isn't the tools, it's getting the relevant data out of the code and into external files (text files usually being easiest). Dedicated modders will figure out ways to put it all together, and some will have enough programming experience to write their own utilities for installation and mod-switching, etc. (although it's always preferable if the devs do this themselves, especially for MP purposes).

In fact, if the tools themselves are slightly 'user unfriendly', this can actually have a beneficial effect on the overall quality of mods... you won't have hordes of neophytes releasing untested mods that they whipped out in 10 minutes with an editor, you'll have a smaller number of intelligent, dedicated people who produce quality work. Of course, there's no need to make things difficult on purpose, but there's not really a burning need to produce a slick program for it either.

One of the few things that MOO3 did (almost) right was to externalize just about everything in Excel-based tables, saved as .txt files. This allows anybody with a text editor to make whatever changes they like to the data. In many cases the structure even supports extending the tables, or even creating new ones with the right format. They also had a structure where the default game files were stored in compressed folders, and the program would look for similar files in uncompressed subfolders, and over-ride the defaults if it found any. This allows for easy installation and removal of mods without over-writing the main game files (especially handy for MP). For examples of the kinds of mods that are possible in a system like that, you might check out MOO3Mods.com.

The problem is, this kind of open-ended modding is easiest to implement if it's part of the original design... having no knowledge of how you've set up the current game code, I have no idea how easy it would be to put it in now, or in a patch.

As for which specific items to put in first, my personal preference is for a system that allows you to not only tweak stats, but also to add completely new elements to the game (which also includes the ability to change pretty much everything about the existing ones). In other words: new units (basically the capability that's already there, plus the ability to assign units to be buildable by certain nations/independents); new nations (and new themes for these, as well as for the standard nations); new spells; new items; new special dominon effects (assuming these are treated separately from themes); the ability to remove standard elements (pretty trivial to accomplish once the rest is done); new graphics (this isn't my personal main area of concern, but it might be necessary for new units and nations), etc. That's more or less in (my own) order of importance.

Obviously, I don't expect that all of this will be trivial to implement (or necessarily even possible at this point), but you did ask for wish-lists...

On the subject of whether to include 'moddability' or not in the first place, I think all the relevant arguments have already been made (and re-made, etc.). I will say that, from a publisher/developer point of view, modding only enhances the value of your product. It not only increases the initial appeal (it's a very nice thing to have on your list of features these days), but it greatly extends the lifespan of the product. Even well-designed programs benefit from the ability to be constantly refreshed by the input of new ideas (in fact, I'd say that they benefit even more than poorly-designed products that mods just can't save in the long run... I'll refrain from giving examples here... ).

From a player perspective, it's a win-win situation. If you're happy with the vanilla game, you can happily keep playing it as long as you like, and there's no need for you to even be aware that mods exist, secure in the knowledge that (for technical reasons) the vast majority of MP games will be played with the unmodded game anyway. If you have a hankering for a game with a different 'theme', but the same basic gameplay, then you can try out some mods, or build your own. The argument that the very existence of mods 'makes MP more difficult' is completely specious... it does no such thing. In fact, the opposite is true... the existence of MP makes modding more difficult, since odds are that the community as a whole will not want the same mod running, thus most MP games (at least those where you play large numbers of people, or total strangers) will have to be with the unmodded game. If there's a relatively simple means of installing mods, and of reverting to the default settings, then both needs are satisfied quite easily.

Sorry for the excessively long post, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart for a variety of reasons... I should point out though, that on the strength of what I've seen of Dom I, none of the above would be necessary for me to enjoy Dom II... but any of it would be more than welcome.

[Edit: I forgot to mention new Pretenders! Hopefully that was implied by the combination of new nations/new units... if not, then add them too... ]

[ September 28, 2003, 21:07: Message edited by: Bard of Prey ]

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
I dont think that anyone disrespect Nerfix. However his comments are very childish and ignorant. That is not very good.

I wish you guys would just drop it - in one breath you say you don't disrespect Nerflix, in the next you're calling him all kinds of names, disparaging his comments - I don't care whether you do or don't respect Nerflix or his comments, but I see no need to bash the guy.

to ask a question relevant to the thread: what are the top mods you would want to make, if Dom II becomes moddable - your own fantasy worlds, or stuff based on Tolkien, AD&D…other pseudo-historical nations?

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
On the subject of whether to include 'moddability' or not in the first place, I think all the relevant arguments have already been made (and re-made, etc.). I will say that, from a publisher/developer point of view, modding only enhances the value of your product. It not only increases the initial appeal (it's a very nice thing to have on your list of features these days), but it greatly extends the lifespan of the product. Even well-designed programs benefit from the ability to be constantly refreshed by the input of new ideas (in fact, I'd say that they benefit even more than poorly-designed products that mods just can't save in the long run... I'll refrain from giving examples here... ).

From a player perspective, it's a win-win situation. If you're happy with the vanilla game, you can happily keep playing it as long as you like, and there's no need for you to even be aware that mods exist, secure in the knowledge that (for technical reasons) the vast majority of MP games will be played with the unmodded game anyway. If you have a hankering for a game with a different 'theme', but the same basic gameplay, then you can try out some mods, or build your own. The argument that the very existence of mods 'makes MP more difficult' is completely specious... it does no such thing. In fact, the opposite is true... the existence of MP makes modding more difficult, since odds are that the community as a whole will not want the same mod running, thus most MP games (at least those where you play large numbers of people, or total strangers) will have to be with the unmodded game. If there's a relatively simple means of installing mods, and of reverting to the default settings, then both needs are satisfied quite easily.

very well put

[Mortifer]

Aye well said Bard.
If my english would be good enough, I would post like that.

What mods will we create? Well if we can edit units/nations/pretenders, there will be no limits.
Tolkien world, AD&D, Warhammer etc.
My personal favourite is Middle Earth of course.
The War of the Ring would be the best era for a mod. [Mordor, Isengard, Gondor, Lorien, Fangorn etc. for the nations.]

[ September 28, 2003, 22:09: Message edited by: Mortifer ]