suggestion about commanders

[Psitticine]

Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mortifer:
The AI is cheating on harder diff. levels? [Example: Civ3. ]

if cheating is receiving quantitative advantages, then yes the AI cheats. I dont think that new (refined) algorithms are used on higher levels of difficulties (few games have ever done that, but Gal civ function like that).

what I dont know is, does the AI have access to informations it is not supposed to gather, like in Age of wonders, the AI which dont have the fog of war.

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Ah, Gal Civ, my other addiction!

I shouldn't be mistaken as anybody who has any kind of authoritative info on the AI's inner workings but, if I remember some Illwinter-posted comments from the beta-forum, the harder AIs get more design points to spend at the begining of the game and that's it. If you choose for them to have such an advantage, then they can spend those points on stronger gods, more advantageous scales, and/or better forts, but they otherwise have to play by the same rules as the player.

Circumstantial evidence from the oddball game I played Last night (I just kept having lucky break after lucky break! It was awesome! ) certainly indicates the AI doesn't have any Secret Knowledge at the Normal level at least.

In this game, the AI-led Ulm attacked north around a lake when my southern defenses were nothing but a sham. Northward, my Jotun armies were gathering beyond the border provinces to eventually sweep around the lake and attack. Those same armies were well able to withstand the assualt and then pressed forward to redefine the border quite substantially in my favor.

To the south, the border provinces themselves were defended to the same degree as the northern borderlands, but there wasn't anything of note beyond them. If one had fallen, the path would have been clear for a rampage or possibly even the conquest of a large part of my empire. (Did I mention I got a lot of lucky breaks? )There's no way the AI would have chosen to go north instead of south if it had known what lay beyond the bordering provinces!

If they did know where my military strength really lay but had chosen to assualt the northern armies before they could strike, past experiences show they wouldn't have gone about things the way they did, with a less-than-overwhelming multi-pronged attack. They were not all that threatened where they were (due to their own Dominion being stronger than mine there, plus a good degree of provincial Defence in place) so it simply wasn't time for a desperate move. The AI only makes futile assaults if you've bottled them up so thoroughly that they have no other options.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
He can use spies too you know.

If the AI did actually sneak stealthy units, I expect some of them would be intercepted by my patrols eventually. Yet I've never seen it happen. OTOH I've seen lots of AI spies, assassins, etc. in standard battles.

It doesn't mean he’s cheating if he starts landing arrows from afar. I'm not 100% sure but I think he can't see whole map. In one of my games I had increased my defense forces significantly and had steady patrols along borders, so they would intercept any spies. When arrows and flames started coming they would only attack commanders along the borders and in my home province. That gave me impression that he can't see whole map but as I said I can't be 100% sure. Only devs can answer that one.

No answer needed from the devs, I just ran a quick test to prove you wrong. Edited the Europa map, removed all #specstart except Pangaea which I relocated in Iceland. Added 10 Pandemoniacs to speed research up, and an air-4 Manticore pretender. Added a couple "BLasted Heath". Recruited the first non-mage merc available. Researched Conjuration 4 and Enchantment 4, then switched the nation to AI control. I did all this to make sure Pangaea could cast Call of the Wind/Wild and Seeking Arrow, while being unable to move outside its capital or to use Astral Projection.

My second test nation, Arco, was randomly placed on the other side of the map, in Aegyptus. One of the leaders here was pinned by a Seeking Arrow the very turn after I switched Pangaea to AI. Even if Pangaea had received a Stone Sphere as an event, it needed an extra turn to use it to locate Arco. QED. The AI knows where you are.

Now what's really funny is the AI seems to be fond of casting "The Eyes of God" - what a waste of gems ;-)

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Daynarr:
He can use spies too you know.

If the AI did actually sneak stealthy units, I expect some of them would be intercepted by my patrols eventually. Yet I've never seen it happen. OTOH I've seen lots of AI spies, assassins, etc. in standard battles.

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I've had the AI try to assasinate one of my commanders - having to go through some of my territories stealthily to do so. But only once, so it doesn't seem like the AI uses stealthy critters much. And this doesn't answer whether or not the AI uses spies to gather intelligence.

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
If the AI did actually sneak stealthy units, I expect some of them would be intercepted by my patrols eventually. Yet I've never seen it happen. OTOH I've seen lots of AI spies, assassins, etc. in standard battles.

You mean stealthy units = stealthy armies? If you are talking about armies I have seen Panganea on several occasions try to sneak an army to my home province (didn't see other nations though). As far as spies, assassins, black servants, etc. goes I use them often to mark target. So if you see a lot of them, why wonder if AI knows where to shoot?

No answer needed from the devs, I just ran a quick test to prove you wrong. Edited the Europa map, removed all #specstart except Pangaea which I relocated in Iceland. Added 10 Pandemoniacs to speed research up, and an air-4 Manticore pretender. Added a couple "BLasted Heath". Recruited the first non-mage merc available. Researched Conjuration 4 and Enchantment 4, then switched the nation to AI control. I did all this to make sure Pangaea could cast Call of the Wind/Wild and Seeking Arrow, while being unable to move outside its capital or to use Astral Projection.

My second test nation, Arco, was randomly placed on the other side of the map, in Aegyptus. One of the leaders here was pinned by a Seeking Arrow the very turn after I switched Pangaea to AI. Even if Pangaea had received a Stone Sphere as an event, it needed an extra turn to use it to locate Arco. QED. The AI knows where you are.

This is probably true (almost certainly since we can’t tell what info AI gets when you switch control in mid game) but that means that AI can see where to shoot those spells, not that he has all info about your troops, movements, or that he can declare war on you from other side of the map without spotting you with spies first. He could be using "cheat" info only in that aspect of the game. He doesn't appear to see everything judging by his actions (e.g. movement troops, directions of attack).
The thing is that we don't play same game and even if AI could see everything in Dom I things could have changed somewhat in Dom II. So, "no need to ask devs" statement seems a bit rushed. We are both guessing something they know.

[/qb]Now what's really funny is the AI seems to be fond of casting "The Eyes of God" - what a waste of gems ;-)[/QB]

Waste of eyes too.

[st.patrik]

I just realised (reading Sunray_be's website) that one of the negative random events is an assassin trying to kill one of your commanders - so it may be that it wasn't the AI.

So just ignore my earlier post

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Daynarr:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
OTOH I've seen lots of AI spies, assassins, etc. in standard battles.

... if you see a lot of them, why wonder if AI knows where to shoot?

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I mean I've seen lots of AI *unsneaked* spies, etc. participating in standard battles with other regular troops - just like if they were regular foot commanders. I can't see how these unsneaked spies could gather more intel than the regular commanders they journey with ;-)

This is probably true (almost certainly since we can’t tell what info AI gets when you switch control in mid game)

As Pangaea I had absolutely no info on Arco when I switched Pangaea to AI - let's say that was in turn N. And this Seeking Arrow did hit in turn N+1, so the spell was planned the previous turn (turn N), at a moment we know Pangaea had no "real" knowledge on Arco's location.

but that means that AI can see where to shoot those spells, not that he has all info about your troops, movements

On the contrary I've seen strong evidence that the AI monitors your leaders' moves, and I believe he's particularly fond of targetting heroes - I remember one occasion when I used the Caelum hero named Caelos to ferry troops deep into my core provinces, and guess what? 3 turns in a row, in 3 different provinces, the poor unescorted Caelos was targetted by Seeking Arrows.

or that he can declare war on you from other side of the map without spotting you with spies first.

My test proves otherwise, since Pangaea couldn't send spies outside of Iceland to spot Arco. Or maybe you don't consider a Seeking Arrow serious enough to qualify as a declaration of war? Then I've news for you: I generated a couple more turns and Pangaea started sending hawks and wolves on Arco.

He could be using "cheat" info only in that aspect of the game. He doesn't appear to see everything judging by his actions (e.g. movement troops, directions of attack).

AI = dumb. It can't analyze positions like you do, but from that you shouldn't infer that it hasn't access to the info.

The thing is that we don't play same game and even if AI could see everything in Dom I things could have changed somewhat in Dom II. So, "no need to ask devs" statement seems a bit rushed.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear, every bit I wrote was related to Dom 1 only.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pocus:
what I dont know is, does the AI have access to informations it is not supposed to gather, like in Age of wonders, the AI which dont have the fog of war.

Play a 1-on-1 game on a huge map against an AI nation like Caelum or Pangaea, after a dozen turns it will start landing hawks or wolves on your provinces.

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yes, I remember that it does that, but it seems quite random. Often they will bump on a group far too big for them to handle. So this is far from being an evidence that they are scanning your empire without fog of war.

edit : ok, I replied to a post of you, without having yet read the other Messages (and your testbed).

I would like to have Johan or Kristoffer drop a line on this, at least I hope that if the AI see thru fow, thats only for distant spells and not for planning how to counter your armies?

[ October 05, 2003, 06:31: Message edited by: Pocus ]