Player controlled battles???

[HJ]

Whoa, a whole lot of anti-critique critiques.... Which can be summed up as "Shuddup, especially if you haven't been here as long as we have, and you're not a buddy of the devs". This is the kind of atmosphere I was refering to as it feels very inflexible and somewhat hostile.

I'm going to address a few issues, and then rest my case.

I am not married to the devs to care where and what they spend their time on. I think they are all mature and intelligent individuals that can judge this for themselves. If someone would address me this way about my work, I'd feel a bit insulted as far as my maturity and intelligence are concerned.

If the issues have been discussed before, fine. I don't have any illusions that people who are against them now weren't against them before as well. Maybe those that advocated the changes before got alienated by this approach, as I am incrasingly starting to feel as well now, so there are nowhere to be found? And this would also imply that nobody can contribute anything further to the discussions, and the people doing that now are simply not intelligent enough to contribute something new which couldn't have been conceived previously by the "wise ones". Again, very unfriendly.

As far as "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". Well, we are talking about a new game here, and not a patch to an existing one. Sure it's based on the Doms I, but the emphasis is on "based". Not all things are the same, and there is room for additions and changes. Who knows, maybe for possible Doms III if not for this incarnation. And the view itself whether something is "broken" or not is subjective, as are all views. It doesn't have to be broken per se for someone to be able to envision something that would be more enjoyable for some.

Lastly, for the "fitting the game into existing templates" argument. Well, you are guilty of exactly the same thing - fitting all future incarnations of Doms into Doms I framework. Sure there is evolution, but that evolution can take different approaches, an I don't see why it shouldn't encompass more of them than simply improving on the existing formula. I'm not saying that you shouldn't get what you want (and that good things shouldn't be retained), but you are saying exactly that - nope, don't implement what others want, even though it doesn't hurt our goodies. To say that there are other games to play if you want those different things would be the same as me telling you "Well, if you liked the concept of Doms I so much, then go and play Doms I, and let's give Doms II a new life". And furthermore, I'm not trying to fit it into existing frameworks: I'm thinking what I would like to see in this particular game within its particular setup. But even if I would be doing something like that, I guess I could also come up with the argument: "It has been proved successful in so many other titles; hence if the concept ain't broken, don't fix it".

The hositilty and resistance to critiques (and I don't mean rude comments, but tactful suggestions) here is very puzzling, and I never had the (mis)fortune to experience it on this level before, despite being a member of many other forums .I have already said this, and I'm going to restate it: Live and let live. I'm not trying to bring down your desires and wishes, so why do you constantly do that to other people is beyond me. It certainly isn't helpful to the growth of the community and the game, the things you deem so dear to your heart.

[ October 24, 2003, 19:17: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Whoa, a whole lot of anti-critique critiques.... Which can be summed up as "Shuddup, especially if you haven't been here as long as we have, and you're not a buddy of the devs". This is the kind of atmosphere I was refering to as it feels very inflexible and somewhat hostile.

I am not married to the devs to care where and what they spend their time on.

I will try not to read anything into YOUR comment but in general Im alittle afraid we might be seeing some of the pros and cons of going "professional". With Dom 1 we had the feeling of a garage business by friends of ours. With Dom 2 I think we are going to see more "if I pay this much for a game then....." arguments.

Also, dont necessarily take things as being snide. The fact that things have been discussed to death before IS a fact. One which it would be good to know. Especially with reference to googling for the old conversations. And the fact that there is a large contingent of players who loved Dom 1 shouldnt be a surprise so suggestions that turning Dom 2 into something else could almost (ALMOST) be considered trolling if not done delicately.

[ October 24, 2003, 19:34: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by HJ:
Whoa, a whole lot of anti-critique critiques.... Which can be summed up as "Shuddup, especially if you haven't been here as long as we have, and you're not a buddy of the devs". This is the kind of atmosphere I was refering to as it feels very inflexible and somewhat hostile.

That is completely NOT what I was trying to get across.

Discussion is a good thing - a forum like this has the potential to be (and I would argue is) a hotbed of new ideas and innovative suggestions. My point (which you did not respond to) was that some people come in here wanting to re-create dominions as their favourite other game, without first appreciating Dominions for what it is. This is an inherently misguided thing to do, for obvious reasons I think.

Accordingly it is my (humble) opinion that the suggestion to make battles player-controllable is coming from a perspective which has not realised the good thing which it would replace (and therefore destroy). Ergo something I would not want implemented.

Note that none of this implies that it is bad to bring up suggestions, or that they are not welcome, or whatever else. All I would say is that newer converts to Dom I should try to get a feel for why the game is so good, and make suggestions which fit with that rather than cut against it. I don't think this ought to offend anyone - it's a reasonable suggestion.

[MythicalMino]

but...so far, i have pretty much only seen why you want something, and why some others don't...

how are we being anti-anything? you state your opinion, I state mine....you state yours, i state mine....isn't that what a discussion is?

When you give your reasons for having something in the game, and someone else gives their reasons not to have that something in the game...why do you take offense to it? Or, why do you suspect a hostile atmosphere? At least we are not attacking you and trying to force you otu of the forums...

So far, I see your suggestions...then someone else's counter-suggestions....then you post that there is a bad atmosphere....

It is understandable that you want player-controlled battles....and I really don't think anyone is calling you a heretic or anything because you want player controlled battles...BUT, just like you want others to read why there should be, you should also read why others don't think there should be.

You also keep asking why we say it will take a lot of work to redo, rewrite, write new code. Yoy say the devs are their own ppl...true....

But, we are telling you why it will most likely not be implemented...it is a lot of work...and it is something that the devs have basically said they do not think it needs to be in the game...for one reason, it is a lot of work. Another reason, there is no "fore-see-able" need for it....It was dropped, abandoned....

Now, I am not telling you to stop posting this stuff...go somewhere else, play another game, leave us alone....

Actually, what has happened here, is you posted a suggestion, I have posted why it will more than likely not happen....

[Wendigo]

*Boggle*...I am not buddy with the devs & neither are most of the posters, you are making unfair assumptions about the other posters that oppose your point & that doesn't help your side of the argument.

I don't know what kind of forums you have been before in, but as others have said the only way of having a debate is having people posting different points of view and adding arguments to back them.

I have reviewed the past answers you got and all of them were pretty polite and argumented, you might chose to ignore the points made and make it personal but it's not. Those Posts are just the opinions of people that disagree with you, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Would you prefer to be ignored? would you prefer a lie of the type 'we take note of your valuable contribution and will do our best about it'. I would rather prefer the honest opinions expressed in a polite way that you got.

Do not look for conspirations & old buddies clubs where there are none. I do not know most of the previous posters, and those I know, I do from facing each other in the battlefield and making each other's life difficult...hardly a love story.

If there's one thing I am glad about the Dom playerbase is the fact that it's very open to newcomers. When I started playing I did so by joining a group of players that already knew each other from a previous game, yet I was not particularly singled out & ganged on because of it, and was even granted my nation of choice. I have tried to act the same when I have been the one creating the game, and received no complaints on this instance to date.

Try MP with the established crew, they are all a pretty likeable bunch & you will be received with open arms. It's not a matter of us & you, so long as you do not make it so...there are no entry barriers here.

[Pocus]

very instructive post for my english level HJ.

Originally posted by HJ:
Whoa, a whole lot of anti-critique critiques.... Which can be summed up as "Shuddup, especially if you haven't been here as long as we have, and you're not a buddy of the devs". This is the kind of atmosphere I was refering to as it feels very inflexible and somewhat hostile.

I dont know who implied that you should shut up, but it didnt work apparently

(snip some things I dont have comments for)

As far as "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". Well, we are talking about a new game here, and not a patch to an existing one. Sure it's based on the Doms I, but the emphasis is on "based". Not all things are the same, and there is room for additions and changes.

yes sure, there is room for change. But should you not try to play either doms I or doms II some time before saying that the mechanisms dont fit you?

You dont seem to perceive, or dont want to, that when the devs 'fix' something which is already working (lets say 'upgrade' to give a positive tone to the modification you ask), then they wont spend this time on something else, perhaps more urgent (wow, how can it be?). There is a trade off you see.

Who knows, maybe for possible Doms III if not for this incarnation. And the view itself whether something is "broken" or not is subjective, as are all views.

yes that subjective, our view, your view too. Few things are not. So the point is?

It doesn't have to be broken per se for someone to be able to envision something that would be more enjoyable for some.

refine versus create, sure. I still think the devs should concentrate on missing features. My opinion is personal, but is as worthy as your. Thats called discussion I suppose.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Do not look for conspirations & old buddies clubs where there are none. I do not know most of the previous posters, and those I know, I do from facing each other in the battlefield and making each other's life difficult...hardly a love story.

I remember well my biggest defeat since I play the game, and it was you on the giving end. Something like 8 father illearths, some archdevils and pazuzus, 40 priests and 300 units killed. I think you lost some zombies, and had your pretender slightly fatigued for the rest of the day.
Thats was a brutal introduction into the doms I world