Yet another "Wouldn't it be cool if…" thread

[st.patrik]

I think it would be a fun addition to the game if you were able to build the unique troops of the nations you conquer. Not that you be able to build all their national troops, but that you be able to build the two or three special troop types available only in their home province - provided by their national magic site/s.

I think Illwinter have chosen against this, so here's my case for why it would be a good idea:

1. It would be really fun to be able to branch out into different magic paths - If you were Ulm and wanted some Astral capability you could try to take out Arco real quick so you could recruit their astrologer. Or say you're Man, and you can eliminate Vanheim - and have access to dwarven smiths. I think it would be fun. That's the first reason.

2. I think it would accelerate the game. As you take over nations and eliminate them from the game you are not only growing in experience for your units, but adding to the diversity of units you can recruit, therefore becoming a more powerful force. This will hasten the end of the game, because unless someone else is taking out nations at the same rate you are, you will be able to field a more diverse army, with the best of all the nations you've conquered, including your own.

3. It would give you a reward, and thus an incentive, to take out other nations. Oftentimes the best strategy is to let others fight first while you build up, and then be strong enough to take out your weakened opponents. Thus early conflict can end up being something which is generally avoided. In any game there is either too little reward for attacking, in which case people stay unaggressive as long as possible, or too much reward for attacking, in which case you lose if you don't dive right in (IMO Warcraft III is an extreme example of this - if you're not almost immediately aggressive you'll end up losing rather quickly).
In any case I think Dominions is somewhere in the middle, but maybe a little more toward the 'less reward for attacking' side. Getting the ability to recruit some of your conquered opponent's troops would tip the scale a little bit the other direction, which might add tension to act more quickly - maybe closer to the perfect balance between overcautious play and being forced into attacking before you are really ready.

For this Last point - I'm not sure if Doms, especially Doms II might not already be balanced - maybe this would unbalance it. Opinions on this, especially from veteran players, are welcome.

Also I would like to hear Illwinter's reasons why they think this is a bad idea (if indeed they do). Johan, Johan, Krisstofer?

[Pocus]

I discovered by chance a while ago that, if you script special home sites in provinces which are not the capitol, then you can recruit these specials units.

So in essence, if you make a scenario, you can eiter add these sites in non capital provinces, or suppress the capital flag of a province, thus opening the site to everybody. not a good idea though, because capital has special capabilities, like the returning point of your god for example.

So the best solution is to let players have a capital province, but make a killfeatures on it, and add manually the sites in a nearby province.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I think it would be a fun addition to the game if you were able to build the unique troops of the nations you conquer. Not that you be able to build all their national troops, but that you be able to build the two or three special troop types available only in their home province - provided by their national magic site/s.

I think Illwinter have chosen against this, so here's my case for why it would be a good idea:

1. It would be really fun to be able to branch out into different magic paths - If you were Ulm and wanted some Astral capability you could try to take out Arco real quick so you could recruit their astrologer. Or say you're Man, and you can eliminate Vanheim - and have access to dwarven smiths. I think it would be fun. That's the first reason.

2. I think it would accelerate the game. As you take over nations and eliminate them from the game you are not only growing in experience for your units, but adding to the diversity of units you can recruit, therefore becoming a more powerful force. This will hasten the end of the game, because unless someone else is taking out nations at the same rate you are, you will be able to field a more diverse army, with the best of all the nations you've conquered, including your own.

3. It would give you a reward, and thus an incentive, to take out other nations. Oftentimes the best strategy is to let others fight first while you build up, and then be strong enough to take out your weakened opponents. Thus early conflict can end up being something which is generally avoided. In any game there is either too little reward for attacking, in which case people stay unaggressive as long as possible, or too much reward for attacking, in which case you lose if you don't dive right in (IMO Warcraft III is an extreme example of this - if you're not almost immediately aggressive you'll end up losing rather quickly).
In any case I think Dominions is somewhere in the middle, but maybe a little more toward the 'less reward for attacking' side. Getting the ability to recruit some of your conquered opponent's troops would tip the scale a little bit the other direction, which might add tension to act more quickly - maybe closer to the perfect balance between overcautious play and being forced into attacking before you are really ready.

For this Last point - I'm not sure if Doms, especially Doms II might not already be balanced - maybe this would unbalance it. Opinions on this, especially from veteran players, are welcome.

Also I would like to hear Illwinter's reasons why they think this is a bad idea (if indeed they do). Johan, Johan, Krisstofer?

The primary reason is to maintain diversity among the the nations, to keep them distinct. This is also the reason why you cannot trade units, at least without convulted enslave mind etc strategies. As for the accelration and incentice issues I think these are better answered by victory points, which you can choose to be present in starting locations or not. So you can set up a game where you win by counquering x out of y home provinces for example.

[Psitticine]

I would also think it'd be illogical for (to use your example) Ulm to recruit Arcocephalean Priestesses, given the cultural and religious differences between the two peoples. Most of the unique units come from unique viewpoints. It might make sense to be able to recruit, say, Longbowmen no matter what nation you are, but would the Knights of the Chalice really fight for Ermor if their homeland were to be conquered?

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
I would also think it'd be illogical for (to use your example) Ulm to recruit Arcocephalean Priestesses, given the cultural and religious differences between the two peoples. Most of the unique units come from unique viewpoints. It might make sense to be able to recruit, say, Longbowmen no matter what nation you are, but would the Knights of the Chalice really fight for Ermor if their homeland were to be conquered?

Probably not, I suppose, but then again does it make sense for any independant - say Amazon Sorceresses - to turn around and fight for the nation that just conquered (and enslaved!) their budding civilization?

One clarification though: I wasn't suggesting that you be able to recruit all of a captured nation's troops - just the one's provided by the magic site in the nation's capital. So (unless things are changed in Dom II) no Knights of the Chalice, and no Arco priestesses - For Arco the unit (in Dom I) provided by the magic site is the Astrologer, and for Marignon, the Grand Master.

Still, maybe you (Johan) are right that it would mess up the diversity of the nations too much.

[ October 03, 2003, 05:00: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by st.patrik:


One clarification though: I wasn't suggesting that you be able to recruit all of a captured nation's troops - just the one's provided by the magic site in the nation's capital. So (unless things are changed in Dom II) no Knights of the Chalice, and no Arco priestesses - For Arco the unit (in Dom I) provided by the magic site is the Astrologer, and for Marignon, the Grand Master.

Still, maybe you (Johan) are right that it would mess up the diversity of the nations too much.

Problem with being able to recruit site specific units from home provinces is that for example in Pythium, you would be able to recruit Arch Theurgs, not the more mundane theurgs and acolytes. In a beta build of dom1 you could do what you suggested but because the troops that you got where the most exclusive and unique of the nation. If anything the opposite would make more sense, that youcould recruit theurgs and acolytes, legionnares and gladiators, but not Archtheurgs.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Problem with being able to recruit site specific units from home provinces is that for example in Pythium, you would be able to recruit Arch Theurgs, not the more mundane theurgs and acolytes. In a beta build of dom1 you could do what you suggested but because the troops that you got where the most exclusive and unique of the nation. If anything the opposite would make more sense, that youcould recruit theurgs and acolytes, legionnares and gladiators, but not Archtheurgs.

That's a valid point, although I actually wouldn't want to be able to recruit most of those lesser units. But maybe you're right that the unique units are just too powerful for it to make sense. I'll accept that.