Nagas and other "lost" pretenders

[Pocus]

How often do you script your mages by the way? Occasionally to get a combo going, or more often than that?

[Psitticine]

Me? I usually don't script them to any great degree. They do an excellent job of selecting their own spells in most cases. I will often give them orders to start off with a communion and/or use power-boosting spells if I know they are going into something nasty, but then I more often than not just leave it up to the AI's judgement.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
Me? I usually don't script them to any great degree. They do an excellent job of selecting their own spells in most cases. I will often give them orders to start off with a communion and/or use power-boosting spells if I know they are going into something nasty, but then I more often than not just leave it up to the AI's judgement.

Thank you Psitticine, this is what I wanted you to say
The following 'critics' are not directed toward you, and, I hope, will be felt constructives. I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody with them :

I dont want to feel accusative, but I think this is part of the 'problem' we have, us pbem'er of dominions, and you, the Illwinter team and associated beta testers.

Perhaps the dominions players on the NG are perceived as a small grognard community, but the fact is that most if not all of these players, when playing in pbem, script very often their mages.
Why :
1) tac-AI in doms I is not that good in his spell choice.
2) Competitive play *ASK* you to extract the best of your units. Often we are not playing to win at all cost, we play to have fun, but we dont play either to loose. So we script, even simple tactic like casting Aim them 4 astral fires.
On the contrary, I believe that it is extremely rare that you (the IW team and beta testers) script to the extent we do (that is 50 mages in a row).

This appeal some comments :

1) the problem : Most of dominions I players expected a major, or at least big, focus of IW toward easying scripting tediousness. On the contrary, IW didnt saw a problem there, and didnt focus on how to improve the work of scripting spells. We asked for scripting templates, saving and reloading scripts, scripting several mages at once with the same list, etc.

2) The arguments of IW against the 'problem' are that :
a) there is no problem.
b) few players engage themselves in scripting too much, we dont make modifications for an handful of customers.
c) the game is our, we head it in the direction we want.

Personally I'm pretty sure that many doms I players see there is problem. I posted a poll on what players wanted to see in doms II. True, 50 or so people is a bit too few to get an idea, but still, most of players wanted less micromanagements, including in scripting.
Lastly, IW is selling a product. This mean they want people to buy it. This mean they will increase there selling figures if they try to alleviate the problems many customers have.

Speaking of the (small) french community as an example, 8/10 friends of mine bought the licence of doms I. 2 and perhaps 3 wont buy doms II, before playing the demo, to see if scripting micromanagement is more easy. I know this is a small population, but I think it shows well the trend.

To end on a positive note, perhaps the domsII AI is so good that we wont have to script anything, bare special combos. I pray and hope for that, this would solve everything

ok flames away, and votes for one star now

[MStavros]

Originally posted by Pocus:
[QB2) The arguments of IW against the 'problem' are that :
a) there is no problem.
b) few players engage themselves in scripting too much, we dont make modifications for an handful of customers.
c) the game is our, we head it in the direction we want.

[/QB]

Actually IW tends to say things like that, and it is very annoying. IW should take a lesson from Timegate [Kohan developers], they are an awesome company.
They are always communicating via their message board with the fans, and they are always listening to them. That is the key to make a successful game. If you say things like: 'We like it this way, this won't be changed.', you will loose more fans for sure.
Think about it, before posting that sentence in any form.

[ October 06, 2003, 07:08: Message edited by: MStavros ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Pocus:

2) The arguments of IW against the 'problem' are that :
a) there is no problem.
b) few players engage themselves in scripting too much, we dont make modifications for an handful of customers.
c) the game is our, we head it in the direction we want.

a)There is obviously a problem for some players, other wise you wouldn't complain. In our experience it seems to be less of a problem than it appears to you.
b) There has been a modification to this recently, this was discussed in another thread, The one with Daynarrs suggestion etc.
c) Wether I say it or not or your complaints are listened to or not the game will head in a direction JK and Kristoffer wants. It is not like your views are inherently incompatible with theirs.

There have been some discussions on some of this before. First of all we do script our mages, or at least I do, I just very seldomly have 50 mages in a battle. In fact I have never seen it in multi* player, perhaps we play on poorer maps or play shorter games etc. Secondly just because I argue with you does not mean I do not listen, and more to the point that JK or Kristoffer does not listen. Just because you suggest a change does not mean they should immediately roll over and implement it, they have to weigh it against their own experience and knowledge of the game. Thirdly the major constraint is not lack of wanting to add features that will ease up on micromanagement but it is a lack of resources. IW is still more or less a hobby company, changes are often made because they are fun to make, this might make changes you might find useful to have low priority. Any changes in spell scripting, tac AI etc is changes JK has to make that he doesnt particularily enjoy that he so far hasn't been paid for and might very well not bee that heavily reimbursed for. At the moment you are more or less making demands on JKs or Kristoffers spare time when you suggest a change, so if there isnt an immediate outpouring of wholehearted support for any suggested changes this should not suprise you.

As for the complaint that IW do not listen to your your opinions MsStavros. I thought it would be preferable if I we argued point or made our reasons clear why a change was not made rather then just saying uh huh or there might be a change, or just not answering at all. I think my opinion as a player are as valid as yours even if I have had some small part in the making of dominions, I play the game I have opinions on it. Just because I do not agree to you do not mean that I do not listen.

A few parting point thoughts.
There is work on modding tools going on, the possiblilty of copying scripts have been added. Other changes suggested here or by shrapnels beta testers have been implemented.
If all the features suggested here was to be implemented, dom 2 would never see the light of day.
JK and Kristoffer are nicer than I am.

*Edit changed single player games to mult player games

[ October 06, 2003, 10:09: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
There is work on modding tools going on...

YAY!

[ October 06, 2003, 10:04: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
a)There is obviously a problem for some players, other wise you wouldn't complain. In our experience it seems to be less of a problem than it appears to you.

This is my main point. I dont want my comments to be perceived as bitter remarks. I know well that you have heard in the past, many time, the numerous complaints of players.

I know well the issues you are reporting, and take account of them. That IW is a small team, mostly doing the work on hobby time for example. I wont discuss the 'problem' any further, because baring a massive poll on this topic, poll which could reasonably be launched only after some weeks or even months of playing dominions II, baring this, you would not be convinced, and me neither, that the problem is widespread, or is reduced to a hard core community of fanatic players.

The forum is a place of discussion, I felt appropriate to rise (again) the issue, because it is one for some players. I'm not speaking alone, and I dont feel either that I have the right to have anything from IW, except perhaps some explainations that you just gave me. SO everything is ok. I will play eargerly doms II, and will surely either recognize that the 'issues' some of us were having have dispareared, or, on the other hand, are still there. Then I will bring again the 'problem' on this forum.