Damage Types: Pierce, Slash, and Crush

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by PDF:

In fact the distinction between "crush" "slash" and "pierce" damage is quite artificial, weapons apply kinetic forces on a more or less large area, that's all !

No... it's force over an area, force over a line, and force at a point.

For normal, human-wielded weapons, you can (making broad generalizations) also say this:

Crush: High momentum, low kinetic energy, area impact.
Slash: Mid momentum, mid KE, sharp line impact.
Pierce: Low momentum, high KE, sharp point impact.

There are exceptions - a lance acts as though it has high KE and high momentum, for example - but these categories work pretty well for normal weapons... and the ones that don't fit perfectly could still be dual-typed. Monster damages have to be shoe-horned, or a "Generic" damage type could be used for things that just don't fit very well.

As for archers, pikeneers, and knights being unbalanced... yep Faced with skeletal hordes, you'd be toast, unless the archers had backup maces (like crossbowmen sometimes do) or the knights used blunt secondary weapons. Faced with death-by-zombie, you'd better hope the archers and knights had sword backups, because stabbing and shooting zombies has little effect, regardless of what you may have learned playing DOOM.

Facing that army with living people, I'd use swordsmen with tower shields... another strong anti-pierce unit. Their only fear would be cavalry trample, and DOMII knights don't get trample Virtually immune to arrows, and hopefully able to get inside the pike killing zone by deflecting the piercing tips with shields (pikes are long and clumsy, while shields give better leverage), 2 parts of the army would be rendered ineffectual. The knights would have an upper hand based on the hooves, secondary weapons, and heavy armor, but tower shields should be helpful versus lances as well. And at any rate, knights are expensive.

Arioch: I have no saber, but having mastered neko-fu, my hands can crush, pierce, and slash. If only I could make them length 5, I'd be a perfect warrior... but I don't really have to worry too much, as my powered battle armor and Awe +10 keep me pretty safe

-Cherry

P.S.

Even though from my descriptions, it sounds like I want my swordsmen to slice through pikeneers like my knife-fist does through the butter that composes mere mortals, I seriously want the modifiers to be moderate. As in, overall, the tower-shielded swordsmen would be able to face down 20% more pikeneers or archers than before, due to the pierce-bonus of a tower shield, assuming that a tower shield gets a pierce bonus.

[ October 13, 2003, 19:38: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[DominionsFan]

LOL PDF you must be kidding.

I think a spear is causing totally different damage, than a hammer or a sword.....
Example:
Plate mail: A pierce weapon -like a spear- can cause lot bigger damage, than a hammer against someone whos wearing that kind of armor. Just think.

These are valid damage types even in real life. The system would be very useful. I really like to see it in Doms II, if it can be added.

[ October 13, 2003, 19:52: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
LOL PDF you must be kidding.

I think a spear is causing totally different damage, than a hammer or a sword.....
Example:
Plate mail: A pierce weapon -like a spear- can cause lot bigger damage, than a hammer against someone whos wearing that kind of armor. Just think.

How true. I reckon that this system is a very good idea. I think that this would be a great addition to Doms II. Well yeah, IF it can be implented to the game later on. Why not? If someone than the Illwinter devs can do it!

[Pocus]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
[QB]LOL PDF you must be kidding.

I think a spear is causing totally different damage, than a hammer or a sword.....
Example:
Plate mail: A pierce weapon -like a spear- can cause lot bigger damage, than a hammer against someone whos wearing that kind of armor. Just think.

the damages are differents, but they are there anyway : an hammer blow against a hard surface as a plate will leave your ribs splited into several parts, along with internal hemorragies. Sure, your stomach wont be pierced, but who cares? You would die anyway.

[PvK]

With enough force any damage type can defeat any almost armor type (and a weak enough hit can fail to almost any armor type), but it's a matter of degree. Weapon and armor types are signifigant factors, but complex ones.

There are historical accounts, for example, of a battle where the knights' fine chainmail was so well and tightly made, that swords couldn't get through it, and the knights had to be bashed. However, many other examples of chain mail have wide enough rings that they are relatively easy to stab through with a pointed weapon. Bodkin arrows were developed with very narrow heads for penetrating armor, although they make a smaller wound on an unarmored target than a wider arrowhead which probably wouldn't make it through a breastplate. Weapons and armor evolved throughout history to counter each other.

However the details of such things are quite complex, and therefore difficult to model well. There are many exceptions, work-arounds, and details to consider. At the scale and level of abstraction of Dominions, it might be best to leave well enough alone. Judging from the quality of the existing work, though, I imagine Illwinter could do a good job of adding such details, if they felt it was interesting and worth the effort.

PvK

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by PvK:
Judging from the quality of the existing work, though, I imagine Illwinter could do a good job of adding such details, if they felt it was interesting and worth the effort.

Yeah!!! So if anyone disagrees, that means they think Illwinter can't do quality work!

[DominionsFan]

Originally posted by Pocus:
the damages are differents, but they are there anyway : an hammer blow against a hard surface as a plate will leave your ribs splited into several parts, along with internal hemorragies. Sure, your stomach wont be pierced, but who cares? You would die anyway.

Hell no! If you hit a decent platemail with a hammer -or with a sword-, you will take almost no damage. The sword is still better than a hammer for example against plate mails.
All armors have their weaknesses of course. Chainmail is good against swords, plate is good against blunt/crush/blugeoning weapons, scalemail is good against piercing weapons like a spear.
Also Illwinter should add different armors like mithril chain etc. The possibilities are endless! This would enchance the gameplay.
I am supporting this idea with full heart!

[ October 13, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]