Targeting efficiency

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Mortifer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maelstorm:
I hope that the Dominions 2. AI will be lot better.

You must be kidding, the Doms I. AI was lot better than the AI of the current strategy games. Try a medium map with 3-6 AIs on the highest level. You will be owned. Yeah a human can beat the AI in 1v1, but if more (4+) AIs are set, it is LOT harder to win, you need luck.
+ The Doms II AI will rock some booties if true, so maybe even the 1v1 AI will kick you hard!

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No, I don't think he is kidding. I've talked to lots of people who have no problem stomping all over the Dom 1 AI, despite the fact it starts out with an advantage over human players. It's not bad, but it doesn't particularily appear to be better than other similar games either. I'd say both the Aow2 and Warlords 3 AIs are better.

I find the AI easy to abuse, and only difficult when you have lots of AI players + Ermor. The other AIs have no clue how to fight Ermor, which proceeds to have free reign and potentially grow quite large before you face it.

It's been a while since I've played solitaire Dom 1, but as I recall the AIs just don't expand very fast, and aren't tactically prepared when battle is joined.

[ October 14, 2003, 07:14: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[DominionsFan]

Yes well, the Dominions II. supposed to be lot better, if true...we shall see.

[johan osterman]

The strategic AI can handle more situations in dom 2 than in dom 1, it is slightly better but it isnt Deep Blue. I hardly ever play single player TBS games so I do not know how it holds up against the AI's of other games. Shrapnels beta testers and Shrapnels personel thought the AI was very good, but an experienced dom player will still no doubt beat th AI in one on one matches.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
The strategic AI can handle more situations in dom 2 than in dom 1, it is slightly better but it isnt Deep Blue. I hardly ever play single player TBS games so I do not know how it holds up against the AI's of other games. Shrapnels beta testers and Shrapnels personel thought the AI was very good, but an experienced dom player will still no doubt beat th AI in one on one matches.

the important things to consider, as it was the AI main weaknesses in doms I are :
is the AI aware that a supply rule exists.
is the AI prone to ward his armies, somehow intelligently.

in a pbem game we just finished, playing as Ctis, I got invaded by Pythium AI (Grana map). Even at 1 versus 5 I was able to wade thru their provinces, just because I casted each time foul vapor/poison ward, and they were totally caught off guard each time.

This is the kind oh problems that the AI have. The AI on the other hand is very tough when you counter them 'fairly', that is you attempt to have superiority on the battlefield without magic.

[Wendigo]

Indeed, to follow up on what Pocus & others point out:

The Dom I AI cannot stand vs a vet player either strategically nor tactically:

Strategically:
-It doesn't build the right unit-mix to face its opponent (with lack of priest power when facing Ermor being the most notable failure).
-It disregards supply & usually fields starving hordes.
-It does not patrol, nor builds local defense so it is totally open to sneak attacks.
-Cannot equip supercombatants & mages in a competitive way.

Tactically:
-It just bunches its troops in a big mass, disregarding friendly damage due to auras & such.
-Has no scripts for specialized troops like fliers, cavalry or missile troops.
-Does not protect its mages & commanders.
-Cannot deal with ward+battlefield spell combos.
-Cannot deal with supercombatants.
-Does not bloodhunt.

I do think the tactical spell AI is competent though as I have said before, but a vet will likely script the 5 initial spells for maximum efficiency anyway.

Still, this is no different from any other 4X game in pc gaming industry, the more complex the game (and Dom is more complex than any of them), the harder it is for the AI to stand vs a competent player.

But that's why we have MP in Dom anyway, and seeing as I got 2 full years of enjoyable gaming from Dom I will gladly support IW by purchasing Dom II. I have great hopes in this game.

[ October 14, 2003, 11:02: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Indeed, to follow up on what Pocus & others point out:

The Dom I AI cannot stand vs a vet player either strategically nor tactically:

Strategically:
-It doesn't build the right unit-mix to face its opponent (with lack of priest power when facing Ermor being the most notable failure).
-It disregards supply & usually fields starving hordes.
-It does not patrol, nor builds local defense so it is totally open to sneak attacks.
-Cannot equip supercombatants & mages in a competitive way.

Tactically:
-It just bunches its troops in a big mass, disregarding friendly damage due to auras & such.
-Has no scripts for specialized troops like fliers, cavalry or missile troops.
-Does not protect its mages & commanders.
-Cannot deal with ward+battlefield spell combos.
-Cannot deal with supercombatants.
-Does not bloodhunt.

I do think the tactical spell AI is competent though as I have said before, but a vet will likely script the 5 initial spells for maximum efficiency anyway.

Still, this is no different from any other 4X game in pc gaming industry, the more complex the game (and Dom is more complex than any of them), the harder it is for the AI to stand vs a competent player.

But that's why we have MP in Dom anyway, and seeing as I got 2 full years of enjoyable gaming from Dom I will gladly support IW by purchasing Dom II. I have great hopes in this game.

Nice list about the AI weaknesses and I agree with those.
Lot of players are playing singleplayer mainly, so the AI must be upgraded. If the devs know that what was wrong with the AI, they can upgrade it. This list is valid, so these things should be fixed/updated.

I tell you something. If the mod tools will be out, you will be able to tweak the AI. How? Simply disable the tricky spells, what the AI cannot use properly. Than the players cannot trick the AI that much.

Anyways these issues with the AI should be fixed and than the AI will kick some ***. I am totally sure that the AI can be tweaked like that.
Just check the list and tweak/update the necessary parts of the AI.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Nice list about the AI weaknesses and I agree with those.
Lot of players are playing singleplayer mainly, so the AI must be upgraded. If the devs know that what was wrong with the AI, they can upgrade it. This list is valid, so these things should be fixed/updated.

I tell you something. If the mod tools will be out, you will be able to tweak the AI. How? Simply disable the tricky spells, what the AI cannot use properly. Than the players cannot trick the AI that much.

Anyways these issues with the AI should be fixed and than the AI will kick some ***. I am totally sure that the AI can be tweaked like that.
Just check the list and tweak/update the necessary parts of the AI.

It is a little more complicated than that, for example making the strategic AI counter a player devised combo or supercombatant strategy is almost impossible since there are so many potentionally devastating combos and spells etc that are very powerful in special circumstances. Making an AI that adapts its strategy the way a human does in a game as complex as this is all but undoable, not only would the AI have to 'understand' the implications of the way spells items units interact but also 'understand' when a particular combo or spell etc was likely to appear etc, there is just to many factors to take into account. So making more than incremental improvements in the AIs ability to counter spell combos and supercombatants is very difficult.

Some but not all of the rest has been dealt with. The AI bloodhunts. Protecting commanders is not as important as it used to besince the attack commander/attack magic Users has been replaced with attack rear. Supercombatants might also be somewhat weaker due to changes in the strikeback effect and the removal of the attack commander orders.

[ October 14, 2003, 13:03: Message edited by: johan osterman ]